Help! What COMPLETELY LEGAL Ebike will get me up hills?

[Bike & Tina Turner]

My previous post was deleted despite editing out offending info, so I'll post my request again. Need bike, need to go up hill. Help, etc.

• I'm 65kg, 5'3"
• Hills
• £2k budget
• Have existing 26" mountain bike I can convert but quite an old bike with rim gears

I'd appreciate some genuine advice. Thank you.

 

[cyclebuddy]

As saneagle said, torque numbers are meaningless. You need to specify a host of other details like power. yield and RPM. Manufacturers supply test charts to help with selecting the best motor for the job. I usually look for maximum torque for 180rpm at around 500w for my 26 and 700c bikes to run on 36V 16A controllers. Geared hub motors with similar size and weight tend to give similar maximum torque but some have higher yield than others so are preferrable. On bikes with a lower power controller like the Woosh Faro, I am looking for best torque and yield for 350W. 350W means I can go for a smaller, lighter hub motor like the Aikema 85SX, now 85SX(RC1). Aikema change the naming scheme of their motors a lot. The 85SX gives 42NM with 14A controller and 45NM with 16A controller.
There is one more factor that needs to be taken into account, the gear reduction ratio. The Aikema 85SX for example has two stage 11.5:1 reduction gearbox, much better at 80rpm than motors with the same maximum torque at 180rpm but with 4.5 reduction ratio because the yield at low speed is better with higher reduction ratio.
Maximum torque a complicated subject so take the advertisement at your risk.

Really? Are we really saying the OP needs to know all that to grasp the basic difference between the Estarli e20.7 and e20.8?

The nm figure in Estarli's specification is a simpler, more easily digested comparative figure the layman might hope to grasp when comparing the two otherwise near-identical models. One version of the bike has more grunt/power/poke/hill-climbing ability (call it what you like) than the other; it need be no more complicated than that. Nobody knows what that's really like until they're ridden one/both; it's indicative, a relative comparator.

I'm sure Estarli have done their homework as thoroughly as you do.

Why do so many simple OP questions - asked in the OP's now deleted original post - need to descend into geek-fest monologues?

 

[Woosh]

Really? Are we really saying the OP needs to know all that to grasp the basic difference between the Estarli e20.7 and e20.8?

The nm figure in Estarli's specification is a simpler, more easily digested comparative figure the layman might hope to grasp when comparing the two otherwise near-identical models. One version of the bike has more grunt/power/poke/hill-climbing ability (call it what you like) than the other; it need be no more complicated than that. Nobody knows what that's really like until they're ridden one/both; it's indicative, a relative comparator.

I'm sure Estarli have done their homework as thoroughly as you do.

Why do so many simple OP questions - asked in the OP's now deleted original post - need to descend into geek-fest monologues?

It's not the first time that torque figures are discussed. Saneagle has a clear view on this. I think although it's complicated, it is better to understand the physics (tyre radius, weight, gradient, speed, mass etc) so you can make better decisions. I don't know which motor the Estarli uses so can't comment there. In general, you need a 36V 17A controller for 50NM.

 

[Woosh]

She

Very sorry, I evidently need new glasses.

Your bike is in excellent condition. If you want to convert it, I would suggest an XF08C rear hub which looks very discret or a middle motor like TSDZ2 which has excellent natural ride feel. Email kits@wooshbikes.co.uk if you are interested.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

My experience with the woosh xf08c kit https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/woosh-xf08c-cassette-with-rear-rack-battery.45406/

 

[saneagle]

Really? Are we really saying the OP needs to know all that to grasp the basic difference between the Estarli e20.7 and e20.8?

The nm figure in Estarli's specification is a simpler, more easily digested comparative figure the layman might hope to grasp when comparing the two otherwise near-identical models. One version of the bike has more grunt/power/poke/hill-climbing ability (call it what you like) than the other; it need be no more complicated than that. Nobody knows what that's really like until they're ridden one/both; it's indicative, a relative comparator.

I'm sure Estarli have done their homework as thoroughly as you do.

Why do so many simple OP questions - asked in the OP's now deleted original post - need to descend into geek-fest monologues?

Motors are transducers. They don't have power. They give power according to how much power you give them. If you exchange a 250w motor for a 1000w one, you don't get any more power.

The same applies to torque. For any motor, torque is proportional to current, so there is no such thing as a 40nm motor. Give it 10 amps and it might make 20nm, and at 20amps it'll make 40nm.

Internal reduction ratios and wheel size are the two biggest factors that affect climbing force, where you're basically using the principle of levers to trade speed for force.

The reason we have to give explanations is because people don't understand how things work. If you don't understand, you can't make an informed choice, and these things normally start with a question about choice.

 

[jimriley]

My donor bike is a GT Nomad Hybrid with rim brakes. I fitted a bbs01b , swapped the chainring from 44t to 42 t , gets me up steep rough bridleways when needed. The rim brakes were ok, but I upgraded to a pair of old magura hydraulic rim brakes this year sourced on fleabay. So do I your old un, spend the change on decent panniers if you don't have them etc etc.

 

[Waspy]

I also have a Woosh XF08C kit fitted to my 20 year old mountain bike (aluminium though). The kit has been trouble free and never fails to get me up hills. Mine has the downtube battery.

My brakes are mechanical disk brakes which have similar performance to rim brakes. Just don't go too fast downhill would be my advice.

I also have Dutch Style handlebars, very comfortable and zero learning curve to use. You may need a longer set of cables though.

 

[saneagle]

My brakes are mechanical disk brakes which have similar performance to rim brakes. Just don't go too fast downhill would be my advice.

You can buy good used hydraulic brakes from Ebay for £25 a pair. Even new ones are only about £40. They're the best bang-for-buck upgrade you can make for any bike. Once you have them, you will never go back to cable brakes. They take about 5 minutes to fit (3 screws). Nothing could be easier. They can save your life. I can't understand why anybody would want anything less.

And I forgot, don't forget they're effectively mainteenance free as well. None of that stupid cable and fixed pad adjustment every week.- just fit and forget to get consistent and reliable braking for the next 5000 miles until the pads are worn.

The rest of your bike is excellent. It's just the brakes, and it's so easy to fix to make it perfect.

 

[Waspy]

You can buy good used hydraulic brakes from Ebay for £25 a pair. Even new ones are only about £40. They're the best bang-for-buck upgrade you can make for any bike. Once you have them, you will never go back to cable brakes. They take about 5 minutes to fit (3 screws). Nothing could be easier. They can save your life. I can't understand why anybody would want anything less.

Mate,

I only mentioned my mechanical brakes because the OP is considering converting a nice old Raleigh that has rim brakes and his frame has no provision for disk brakes.

Mechanicals/rim brakes are certainly not ideal on an electric bike but if one rides at legal speeds and one is careful not to let the speed of the bike run away from you on a steep descent they suffice.

Now, having said all that, I listened to your wise words on another thread and had a look on eBay and found the used brake market a bit of a minefield, I ended up buying a new Shimano MT200 front brake (as recommended by Wolftick on Youtube) for about £30 to see how that went before I spend more money on a rear one as well.

And fitting/set up was a doddle and I am very impressed by the brake's performance, a huge improvement, and this is an entry level hydraulic brake.

So, thanks for that. I just need to think about the back brake now, maybe after payday, when I am ever going to stop spending money on this bike? LOL

 

[sjpt]

For many of us whether or not a bike is electric has no significant impact on the choice of brakes. Electric is to help us up hills. The fastest we go is downhill; not pedalling and no assist at those speeds so electric makes no difference other than a small increase in weight. Generally we go slower now on electric bikes than we used to on pedal bikes; and the biggest change in weight is in us and not in the bikes.

That isn't so say hydraulic disk brakes aren't good; just that their importance for many people can be much exaggerated.

 

[saneagle]

That isn't so say hydraulic disk brakes aren't good; just that their importance for many people can be much exaggerated.

It's the opposite. Their importance can't be over-stated. It's a point of safety. Hydraulic brakes always work consistently and reliably without any maintenance to give well-modulated braking. Cable brakes don't give consistent braking, their modulation is poor, and if you don't maintain them regularly, their braking is poor too. We're talking about chalk and cheese. There is absolutely no comparison, and the cost to change is pretty small.

If anybody has cable disc brakes, I recommend that you change them to hydraulics as soon as you can. Even the very cheap hydraulics are many times better than cable brakes, but middle-priced ones, like Shimano, Juicy, magura, Tektro, Avid, etc are even better.

This is one thing that's not snobbery. It's just a matter of performance and safety.

Finally, a non electric bike is ridden around at an average speed of around 10 mph. when you ride around an electric bike at an average speed of 14 mph, even without considering any additional mass, you have double the energy to dissipate to bring the bike to a stop. (E=1/2 mv²). That means on average, you need double the braking. Taking that further, at an average speed of 20 mph, you need four times the braking, and at 30 mph, you need ten times the braking. That's simple physics that you can't avoid.

 

[Az.]

I agree with Saneagle. I bought a bike with hydraulic brakes long time ago and would never go back to vbrakes. Having that said there is a massive difference in performance between hydraulic brakes with Shimano brakes being by far the best out all types that I have tried.

 

[Oldie]

Having considered Saneagle's earlier post I had a look on ebay and found a full new set of Clarks M2 for £31 delivered. Unused, but with a scratch on one of the calipers. My current mechanical front discs are fairly poor so I was looking at better pads anyway so hopefully this will add extra performance too, for smallish money. Looked like there were other well priced items for sale.

 

[saneagle]

Having considered Saneagle's earlier post I had a look on ebay and found a full new set of Clarks M2 for £31 delivered. Unused, but with a scratch on one of the calipers. My current mechanical front discs are fairly poor so I was looking at better pads anyway so hopefully this will add extra performance too, for smallish money. Looked like there were other well priced items for sale.

Let us know how you get on. One fairly important thing is the hose lengths, which need to be approximately right. It's easy to cut one down, but you need to buy one olive for that - cost not a lot:

Bicycle Hydraulic Brake Olive for sale | eBay

Find great deals on eBay for Bicycle Hydraulic Brake Olive. Shop with confidence.

www.ebay.co.uk

Install the brake first then remove the hose from the lever, cut it, put the new olive on, screw it back onto the lever, top up the brake fluid with the right type (important) and pump the brake until it works, then fill up the reservoir to the right level. If you put too much oil in the reservoir, your brakes will jam after you use them because the oil expands with heat and squeezes the pads - eazy to fix, just remove the screw on the reservoir to let the oil expand out.

If the hose is too short, you have to replace it with a new one using the same procedure just described, but fill up the hose with the oil before attaching it to the lever.

 

[boostbikes]

Hello, everyone! If you are in search of a reliable bike that can provide a range of up to 60 miles at impressive speeds (reaching up to 80 miles per hour), we highly recommend considering a Boost bike. We specialize in selling high-quality e-bikes that also feature pedals. Feel free to visit our website at boostbikes.us to explore our offerings. We offer worldwide shipping to cater to customers across the globe.
https://boostbikes.us

 

[boostbikes]

How are your bikes "COMPLETELY LEGAL"?

That's an excellent question! Our bikes are equipped with pedals, which enables them to fall under the class 3 moped classification within the United States. It's worth noting that our bikes adhere to specific speed limitations based on European country laws when used outside of the United States. If you'd like more detailed information about the speeds and regulations, we encourage you to visit our Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page at https://boostbikes.us/pages/speed-faqs. There, you'll find comprehensive answers to common inquiries regarding our bikes' speed capabilities and legal considerations.

 

[Az.]

Member BoostBikes and that company are obviously utterly clueless about the legal position in many countries in the world.

Makes me wonder if this is what they tell customers: "our bikes are legal because they have pedals. It has pedals, so it obviously is a bike. Simples!". OMG, I laughed so hard I spilled my tea.

Have you seen their web page? It is like a worst nightmare coming true.

 

[jimriley]

Great question! We have pedals that make them as legal as any pedal assisted or non assisted bicycle. for more information visit our FAQ page https://boostbikes.us/pages/speed-faqs.


{Admin note, please see my message - I'll leave this post as others are responding to it, but please only respond to answer existing queries and make no further sales posts, thank you}

I keep getting their wayward offers on FarceBook, I have asked on there, got a most sniffy reply, probably seen as An Awkward Customer

 

[soundwave]

 

[Az.]

I can't believe they put Acera derailer on that thing. Also no rear suspension. It is a motorbike which is pretending to be a bike and as result it sucks at each category.