Upgrading an existing ebike

[YORKSHIREEXILE1]

Hi All
I started a thread entitled 'Software updates' but then took it off topic to discuss my other half's bike (half's or halves ). Looks like we've fallen into the oft fallen into mistake of buying second hand and ending up with a dodgy battery, well, lets say less than perfect. The bike is a supermarket (French) special, probably 10 years old, 250W front hub motor with a 24v 10hA battery. The main difficulty is that the battery start giving problems as soon as Jools start to climb a hill, and frankly she's really slow (not 'cos I'm so athletic, my Mecina cross 9 is!). I'm just about convinced that instead of a direct battery replacement, I go with a new 36v system (battery, controller, display and wiring) but retaining the motor, but which one? Bike battery , motor and motor connections shown below, I've only just taken notice of the info on the motor, I see it's a Bafang (they're OK aren't they) but it's a puny 180W, maybe I should look to replace that too?

All thoughts/suggestion most appreciated

Ian

 

[Andy-Mat]

Hi All
I started a thread entitled 'Software updates' but then took it off topic to discuss my other half's bike (half's or halves ). Looks like we've fallen into the oft fallen into mistake of buying second hand and ending up with a dodgy battery, well, lets say less than perfect. The bike is a supermarket (French) special, probably 10 years old, 250W front hub motor with a 24v 10hA battery. The main difficulty is that the battery start giving problems as soon as Jools start to climb a hill, and frankly she's really slow (not 'cos I'm so athletic, my Mecina cross 9 is!). I'm just about convinced that instead of a direct battery replacement, I go with a new 36v system (battery, controller, display and wiring) but retaining the motor, but which one? Bike battery , motor and motor connections shown below, I've only just taken notice of the info on the motor, I see it's a Bafang (they're OK aren't they) but it's a puny 180W, maybe I should look to replace that too?

All thoughts/suggestion most appreciated

Ian

Its almost a "fact of life" that second hand e-bikes have a dodgy battery, with a replacement battery turning a cheap buy into an expensive one.
I just wish that prospective purchasers would take the time to join a forum and research the subject.....but that is the same for almost any hobby....
I hope that you manage to get your bike running well soon and at a reasonable cost...
Best of luck
Andy

 

[YORKSHIREEXILE1]

Its almost a "fact of life" that second hand e-bikes have a dodgy battery, with a replacement battery turning a cheap buy into an expensive one.
I just wish that prospective purchasers would take the time to join a forum and research the subject.....but that is the same for almost any hobby....
I hope that you manage to get your bike running well soon and at a reasonable cost...
Best of luck
Andy

Cheers Andy

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I did negotiate believing it to be a 5 yo bike, his receipt bore that out, it's only when I looked closer once home that I discovered it had obviously lain unloved in a supermarket storeroom for a further 5 years (going on the date on the battery), I didn't pay so much that I'll be out of pocket. Just want to get it so Jools can keep up and I can keep warm

Cheers

Ian

 

[Scorpio]

Hi Ian. I'm no expert but did something similar - see the Dutch bike in my signature. I spent time patching up the original 24V system before upgrading to a new 36V battery with matching rack, new controller & display, brake levers, PAS sensor and a new wheel.
I kept only the wiring harness that ran through the inside of the bike frame as it was a neat solution.

In your case, I'd think about a new 36V battery (complete with a new rack to be sure it fits), new controller and matching display (best bought as a pair), and as your 180W motor only has 3 wires it is "unsensored" - an ideal time to upgrade to a legal 250W "sensored" motor. Easiest way to get compatible parts is to buy a complete kit.
You could just fit a new 24V battery but a 36V upgrade would be a big improvement.

Hope it all works out for you, I found my bike a lot nicer and more practical after the upgrade.

 

[vfr400]

I've converted about three bikes like that to 36v with a 36v controller and battery. Two of them were Schwinn Tailwinds, which are really nice bikes except for the underpowered 24v system and low capacity battery. At 36v, these 24v bikes go much better.

Your motor is sensorless, which limits your choice a bit.

All you need is a complete (with rack) new rack battery and a controller for sensorless motors.

The best controllers are from KT because they have better power regulation. If it's for your Mrs, she might find the higher power at start up from the cheaper controllers a bit unnerving. I recommend this one with the LCD3. You'll need to select the speed sensor as well, and I'd get a throttle, which is at least useful for testing even if you don't use it. You need to find out what type of pedal sensor you have. If it's a normal magnet disc type, you can keep it, but if it's a torque sensor, you need to show some close photos of the area around your bottom bracket. Perhaps do that anyway so we can see how a pedal sensor would fit.

T06P 24V/36V250W 15A KT Square Wave Brushless Controller for Ebike [T06P Controller] - $20.02 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce

Zen Cart! T06P 24V/36V250W 15A KT Square Wave Brushless Controller for Ebike [T06P Controller] - ★★★★★ T-06P 24V/36V250W Torque Simulation Square Wave Brushless Controller for Ebike 1--Rate Voltage:24V/36V 2--Rated Current:7A 3--Maximum Current:15±1A 4--Low Voltage Protection:DC20/30±0.5V...

www.topbikekit.com

Pardon our interruption...

Pardon our interruption...

 

[YORKSHIREEXILE1]

Hi Ian. I'm no expert but did something similar - see the Dutch bike in my signature. I spent time patching up the original 24V system before upgrading to a new 36V battery with matching rack, new controller & display, brake levers, PAS sensor and a new wheel.
I kept only the wiring harness that ran through the inside of the bike frame as it was a neat solution.

In your case, I'd think about a new 36V battery (complete with a new rack to be sure it fits), new controller and matching display (best bought as a pair), and as your 180W motor only has 3 wires it is "unsensored" - an ideal time to upgrade to a legal 250W "sensored" motor. Easiest way to get compatible parts is to buy a complete kit.
You could just fit a new 24V battery but a 36V upgrade would be a big improvement.

Hope it all works out for you, I found my bike a lot nicer and more practical after the upgrade.

Hi Scorpio

Yes, I read your thread when you'd responded to my 'Software upgrade' thread, very informative and entertaining, just typing this to you whilst my brain turns over what VFR400 is saying below!

I think doctoring the 24v system will be a waste of time, that's clearly borne out by your experience, 36v is the way forward

Cheers

Ian

 

[YORKSHIREEXILE1]

I've converted about three bikes like that to 36v with a 36v controller and battery. Two of them were Schwinn Tailwinds, which are really nice bikes except for the underpowered 24v system and low capacity battery. At 36v, these 24v bikes go much better.

Your motor is sensorless, which limits your choice a bit.

All you need is a complete (with rack) new rack battery and a controller for sensorless motors.

The best controllers are from KT because they have better power regulation. If it's for your Mrs, she might find the higher power at start up from the cheaper controllers a bit unnerving. I recommend this one with the LCD3. You'll need to select the speed sensor as well, and I'd get a throttle, which is at least useful for testing even if you don't use it. You need to find out what type of pedal sensor you have. If it's a normal magnet disc type, you can keep it, but if it's a torque sensor, you need to show some close photos of the area around your bottom bracket. Perhaps do that anyway so we can see how a pedal sensor would fit.

T06P 24V/36V250W 15A KT Square Wave Brushless Controller for Ebike [T06P Controller] - $20.02 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce

Zen Cart! T06P 24V/36V250W 15A KT Square Wave Brushless Controller for Ebike [T06P Controller] - ★★★★★ T-06P 24V/36V250W Torque Simulation Square Wave Brushless Controller for Ebike 1--Rate Voltage:24V/36V 2--Rated Current:7A 3--Maximum Current:15±1A 4--Low Voltage Protection:DC20/30±0.5V...

www.topbikekit.com

Pardon our interruption...

Pardon our interruption...

Hi VFR400

Is that NC21, 24, 30 or 35? Jools used to have an NC24 until I used it for my commute for 18 months

I need to sit down and get my head around all this, my knowledge of electrics is way too poor and I need to improve it! Thank you so much for taking the time to set out your thoughts/advice, I'll check out the links, in the interim here's the bottom bracket, I'm pretty sure it's a magnetic sensor? Got to go in for my tea now!

Cheers

Ian

 

[vfr400]

Hi VFR400

Is that NC21, 24, 30 or 35? Jools used to have an NC24 until I used it for my commute for 18 months

I need to sit down and get my head around all this, my knowledge of electrics is way too poor and I need to improve it! Thank you so much for taking the time to set out your thoughts/advice, I'll check out the links, in the interim here's the bottom bracket, I'm pretty sure it's a magnetic sensor? Got to go in for my tea now!

Cheers

Ian

It was a Rothmans NC24, but sadly had to go a couple of years ago due to arthritis. I'm now relegated to an NT700V Deauville and a 300 Forza scooter.

You have a conventional magnet disc type pedal sensor, so no problem there. It should work with the new controller as long as you check the colours of the three wires go together in the right sequence.

 

[YORKSHIREEXILE1]

It was a Rothmans NC24, but sadly had to go a couple of years ago due to arthritis. I'm now relegated to an NT700V Deauville and a 300 Forza scooter.

You have a conventional magnet disc type pedal sensor, so no problem there. It should work with the new controller as long as you check the colours of the three wires go together in the right sequence.

2xRC36s and a SH300i for me, poor Jools is relegated to a non-running Chinese copy of a Lambretta!

Yeah, I thought it a magnetic sensor, pretty neatly done, it looks better thought out than the arrangement on my KTM.

Cheers

Ian

 

[georgehenry]

Sometimes old batteries work quite well.

I bought an old Oxygen Emate City of 2011 vintage in 2018 for £100 assuming the battery that came with it was dead.

After having the bike for a little while I thought I would put the old 7/8 year old battery on charge just to see what would happen and it came back to life and is still in use.

The range is reduced, probably no more than 12 miles on full power, but that was enough to get me 10 miles to work where I could recharge it for my trip home.

I have another old Oxygen Emate that I have owned from new and that has a cheap ebay bought ysbattery that is just over three years old on it and came complete with charger for £185.

About the same range, so 12 miles on full power and 20 miles riding a bit more conservatively.

The batteries got swapped over between those bikes about six months ago so the ysbattery powers the £100 second hand Oxygen that I use to commute to work and back, a 20 mile round trip, but charged at work before the ride home, and my old and very tatty original Oxygen Emate is now used by my son to ride to work and back, about 6 miles or so.

Mostly my old original Oxygen but also the £100 second hand one also get used for innumerable shopping trips and other errands.

My electric bikes (I also have a Haibike hard tail mountain bike) are really more work horses rather than leisure vehicles, getting me and my son to work and back and doing lots of other local errands, mostly shopping, hauling two heavy pannier full loads of shopping regularly back from town up a steep hill.

But although all these journeys are useful they are also fun, and replace journeys that would have required the use of a car.

They also increase both our activity levels rather than using a car.

I am quite honestly amazed that the battery that came with the £100 second hand bike still works so well, as the guy I bought it of had just left it in his garage gathering dust for quite a few years.,

 

[Deleted member 33385]

I bought an old Oxygen Emate City of 2011 vintage in 2018 for £100 assuming the battery that came with it was dead.

£100?!?!? Sometimes sellers really don't have a clue! Was it a car boot sale?

 

[georgehenry]

No, I bought it from the classified section of the pedelecs site.

I thought I was buying a non functioning bike to provide me with spars for my existing bike.

It did look quite sad when I picked it up as it was covered in dust with no saddle, the handlebars loosened of and turned level with the cross bar to take up less room, and a lot of disconnected wires hanging down and no front light.

It took the guy a while to find the battery key and the charger in a cardboard box he gave me that turned out to have the missing front light in it, though no saddle.

So it looked like what I thought I was buying, a good bike to butcher for spars.

When I got home I dumped it in my garage and only really reappraised my purchase a week or so later when I started to take a brake lever off to replace on my old bike.

It started to dawn on me that under the grime was a bike that had only been ridden 500 miles, and I then had a go at putting it back together and seeing whether it could be a going concern.

I realise now that I was very lucky, as fixing it was quite simple, and under the grime was an almost new 7 year old bike that I now use in tandem with my Haibike to commute to work and back as well as other errands.

How the battery survived I really don't know as the chap I bought it from told me he had stopped using the bike quite soon after buying it and I ignored the battery for a while simply assuming it was dead.

The bike had 500 miles on it when I got it in late 2018 and now has over 2,500 miles on it.

I made a thread about it.

I actually do not look at the classified section that much, so getting hold of this bike was a bit of a lightening strike really.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/the-tale-of-a-£100-second-hand-electric-bike.33079/#post-467114

 

[YORKSHIREEXILE1]

Sometimes old batteries work quite well.

I bought an old Oxygen Emate City of 2011 vintage in 2018 for £100 assuming the battery that came with it was dead.

After having the bike for a little while I thought I would put the old 7/8 year old battery on charge just to see what would happen and it came back to life and is still in use.

The range is reduced, probably no more than 12 miles on full power, but that was enough to get me 10 miles to work where I could recharge it for my trip home.

I have another old Oxygen Emate that I have owned from new and that has a cheap ebay bought ysbattery that is just over three years old on it and came complete with charger for £185.

About the same range, so 12 miles on full power and 20 miles riding a bit more conservatively.

The batteries got swapped over between those bikes about six months ago so the ysbattery powers the £100 second hand Oxygen that I use to commute to work and back, a 20 mile round trip, but charged at work before the ride home, and my old and very tatty original Oxygen Emate is now used by my son to ride to work and back, about 6 miles or so.

Mostly my old original Oxygen but also the £100 second hand one also get used for innumerable shopping trips and other errands.

My electric bikes (I also have a Haibike hard tail mountain bike) are really more work horses rather than leisure vehicles, getting me and my son to work and back and doing lots of other local errands, mostly shopping, hauling two heavy pannier full loads of shopping regularly back from town up a steep hill.

But although all these journeys are useful they are also fun, and replace journeys that would have required the use of a car.

They also increase both our activity levels rather than using a car.

I am quite honestly amazed that the battery that came with the £100 second hand bike still works so well, as the guy I bought it of had just left it in his garage gathering dust for quite a few years.,

Hi Georgehenry

That's good to hear, I suppose that it's all a bit of a lottery, Jools's battery will get us to Mt St Michel and back, that's 32km but as flat a ride as you're ever likely to make, throw an incline at it and it starts acting up, for instance it turns off assistance to advise remaining battery.

I had a bit of a ride on it yesterday, it's pretty good when fully charged but the gearing is waaaay too low, something I hadn't realise before and goes some considerable way to explaining why she appears to be so slow to me on the KTM.

Cheers

Ian

 

[georgehenry]

The original batteries on those old Oxygen bikes were quite large from new, 15 or 17 ah. I think it must have had some residual charge in it when it was abandoned to have survived rather than being completely flat.

However my journey to work is 10 miles and has a few big hills to get over. I am a big bloke, too big, well over 100kg, and I carry full panniers, and ride it on full assist, so it has to work hard.

I have not changed any of the settings on it and just ridden it, but my suspicion is that the assist speed cut out has been raised a bit, probably to 20mph, and I have averaged close to 20mph for my 10 mile journey when the conditions were favorable, and always around 19 mph. So that means the battery is worked hard.

The display shows me that the battery lags badly on the steeper hills, but does not cut out, though I must be right on the cusp of what that battery can do now.

A shorter range is not as big a deal for me as it might be for a leisure rider wanting to ride further.

My son and I will keep using it until it dies.

still pretty remarkable really.

 

[georgehenry]

If that bike is good enough for you as it is, but just has a failing battery, why not just get a cheap replacement? That sounds the simplest solution.

20 miles is about as far as my old batteries will take my old rear hub bikes, but that is enough for me for what I use them for, and they get used a lot. Countless shorter very useful journeys.

Having found this site you will see suppliers like woosh bikes where you could buy a brand new bike at some point in the future with maybe a spar battery without braking the bank.

 

[YORKSHIREEXILE1]

If that bike is good enough for you as it is, but just has a failing battery, why not just get a cheap replacement? That sounds the simplest solution.

20 miles is about as far as my old batteries will take my old rear hub bikes, but that is enough for me for what I use them for, and they get used a lot. Countless shorter very useful journeys.

Having found this site you will see suppliers like woosh bikes where you could buy a brand new bike at some point in the future with maybe a spar battery without braking the bank.

Hi

That's where I started, unfortunately I don't seem able to find a direct replacement, I'll need the whole battery box as the existing one is literally falling apart, annoying the very first time I looked I found a replacement at Ali-Baba, can I find it now

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 33385]

No, I bought it from the classified section of the pedelecs site.

I thought I was buying a non functioning bike to provide me with spars for my existing bike.

It did look quite sad when I picked it up as it was covered in dust with no saddle, the handlebars loosened of and turned level with the cross bar to take up less room, and a lot of disconnected wires hanging down and no front light.

It took the guy a while to find the battery key and the charger in a cardboard box he gave me that turned out to have the missing front light in it, though no saddle.

So it looked like what I thought I was buying, a good bike to butcher for spars.

When I got home I dumped it in my garage and only really reappraised my purchase a week or so later when I started to take a brake lever off to replace on my old bike.

It started to dawn on me that under the grime was a bike that had only been ridden 500 miles, and I then had a go at putting it back together and seeing whether it could be a going concern.

I realise now that I was very lucky, as fixing it was quite simple, and under the grime was an almost new 7 year old bike that I now use in tandem with my Haibike to commute to work and back as well as other errands.

How the battery survived I really don't know as the chap I bought it from told me he had stopped using t he bike quite soon after buying it and I ignored the battery for a while simply assuming it was dead.

The bike had 500 miles on it when I got it in late 2018 and now has over 2,500 miles on it.

I made a thread about it.

I actually do not look at the classified section that much, so getting hold of this bike was a bit of a lightening strike really.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/the-tale-of-a-£100-second-hand-electric-bike.33079/#post-467114

Is that an Oxydrive kit? Vfr400 has a complete kit for sale with a bottle battery, unused. Could add future-proofing?

For Sale - Clear out - all sorts of stuff

vfr400 submitted a new listing: Clear out - all sorts of stuff - Clear out - all sorts of stuff I'm moving shortly, so I'm having a massive clearout. I have all sorts of abandoned projects, motors, motor wheels, batteries, controllers and other stuff. I'm not going to have much time to sort...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

 

[georgehenry]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24V10Ah-Electric-Bicycle-Lithium-ion-Battery-Frog-for-Viking-Folding-Bike/223125812355?epid=6034417638&hash=item33f355b483:g:JvUAAOSwD2lcLGVT

Not the same but maybe a work around solution for your problem.

 

[vfr400]

Some history for you. The original Oxydrive kit was completely different and independent from the Oxygen bikes until they made the E-mate MTB in 2014, which used Das Kit electrics. The Oxydrive kit was then changed to Das Kit, so was identical. Oxygen stayed with Das Kit for a couple of years. Up to that point, the same guy owned Oxydrive and Oxygen, but then he sold the Oxygen brand to John Camm, who owned Seascooter, and they ended the relationship with Das Kit and changed to standard Chinese parts with the in-frame battery, which couldn't be used in a kit. Oxydrive continued for another year or so and then closed down to concentrate on other projects.

I was close friends with all these guys until a year ago or so when Oxygen changed owners again after the John suffered some ill health and later died. I haven't had much contact with the new regime. I'm still in occasional contact with Andrew Lozinski, the original owner, who lives in Poland and runs a company called H7 Engineering. His father makes pedicabs, which are sold all over Europe:

H7 Engineering - Contact us

Pedicabs | Rickshaws | Cargo Bikes | Tricycles by Maxpro

 

[georgehenry]

I exchanged quite a few emails with Andrew, who was a great guy.

I later had dealings with John who was also very good, as was Dale who I dealt with for help with spar parts etc.

My 2011 Oxygen Emate was my first electric bike and I bought it from 50cycles original store in Richmond.

When I had a problem (very unusual) with my first motor just within the 2 year warranty I initially contacted 50 cycles for help but they told me they no longer dealt with Oxygen Bikes and could not help me. Not what you want from the dealer you bought your bike from.

Anyway as I had corresponded with Andrew before I bought my bike I contacted him directly and he sent me a replacement motor wheel free of charge for me to swap my tyre, cassette, and brake rotor over to.

I was very impressed.