TSDZ2 conversion Vs Full e-bike?

[Wheelie]

I am thinking about converting two bikes (mine and my wife's) or going full mid drive e-bikes. I have read about the TSDZ2 a fair bit and like the sound of it. It is torque sensing which I would prefer, rather than the Bafang/cadence type. My question really is can the TSDZ2 really compare with a full mid drive such as a Cube/Giant/Raleigh or such like? There are pros and cons obviously, mainly cost, but weight and performance comes into it too. I have looked at some full e-bikes and they only quote 40Nm for the drives and I believe the TSDZ2 is around 80Nm. Some of the main mountain bikes quote something similar but we don't need mountain bikes, we just live in a very hilly area (North Wales). I have recently put a small front hub gear drive on our tandem and it has opened up new routes to us where we don't have to think about potential gradients, but I think the best option is probably torque sensing mid drive for the single bikes - given the hills. The donor bikes we already have are reasonable bikes in their own right, and I'm not sure of the quality of some of the cheaper full e-bike's components. I think I could buy new bikes for around £2-2.5K each, but could convert for considerably less. I know I could buy second hand, but I would then have no idea how the bike and battery have been looked after and could potentially face a large bill soon after. The other consideration is taking the bikes on our motorhome rack. With a conversion I could remove the batteries and I think that would be fine adding about 5Kg, full e-bikes might be a different matter.
Does anyone have any experience of the two and what are your thoughts? Mostly, does a full e-bike perform markedly better than a conversion and is it therefore worth the extra money?
Thanks.

 

[Woosh]

Torque sensor is great for the natural feel of the ride. It's just like you have bionic legs or still are 18 year old.
However, it can be a pita going up those steep hills where you live. This is because the motor output is proportional to your input, to get more out of the motor, you need to input more from your legs.
one advantage with the TSDZ2 over ready made e-bikes is you can get a TSDZ2 with throttle. This is because the law changed since 1/1/2016, e-bike manufacturers can't add a fully acting twist and go throttle while the users can.
Note that the TSDZ2 with and without throttle are two different models.
If you buy the TSDZ2 without throttle, you can't add a throttle later. So if you have big hills and don't have strong legs, best to get the TSDZ2 with throttle.

 

[Wheelie]

Torque sensor is great for the natural feel of the ride. It's just like you have bionic legs or still are 18 year old.
However, it can be a pita going up those steep hills where you live. This is because the motor output is proportional to your input, to get more out of the motor, you need to input more from your legs.
one advantage with the TSDZ2 over ready made e-bikes is you can get a TSDZ2 with throttle. This is because the law changed since 1/1/2016, e-bike manufacturers can't add a fully acting twist and go throttle while the users can.
Note that the TSDZ2 with and without throttle are two different models.
If you buy the TSDZ2 without throttle, you can't add a throttle later. So if you have big hills and don't have strong legs, best to get the TSDZ2 with throttle.

Many thanks for your reply.

I hadn't even thought of a throttle TBH. We are both fairly fit and don't mind putting in some effort. We are also both keen not to lose any fitness that we have, just have a bit of help when it gets steep. I have also looked at light road bikes with rear hubs like the Lapierre Sensium and the Orbea Gain, but these tend to be more expensive, have smaller batteries, less torque etc. so I think mid drives is probably the way to.

So would a TSDZ2 without the throttle compare favourably with, say, a Cube Touring Hybrid (one of the bikes I have looked at) which has a Bosch motor putting out 65Nm? One obvious thing is the Cube is over 25Kg to start with which a conversion wouldn't be.

I am interested when you say a throttle can be fitted by a user as I have been lead to believe that throttles were illegal in the UK, granted this is coming from internet "experts" who have dubious qualifications.

 

[Woosh]

So would a TSDZ2 without the throttle compare favourably with, say, a Cube Touring Hybrid (one of the bikes I have looked at) which has a Bosch motor putting out 65Nm?

Torque-wise, the 48V TSDZ2 is very good, you get about 80NM.
Still, a lot depends on the donor bike but in general, the Bosch motors have cleverer programming, you don't need to change assist level as often.

 

[sjpt]

If you go for a ready-made ebike with a system such as Bosch or Shimano you are likely to be very locked in for any repairs, and often spares are almost impossible to source even for registered dealers. When time comes for replacement batteries they are likely to be good quality but very expensive.

If you go for a bike with TSD or similar you are much more likely to able to carry out a majority of small repairs yourself; and replace things such as controllers relatively easily.

There are some ready-made bikes that use these more generic components; see Woosh and Wisper for example.

 

[Bikes4two]

@Wheelie - If I have suitable donor bikes I would never consider buying a ready made ebike like those fitted with Shimano Steps, Bosch, Yamaha, Mahle X35 etc etc because:
- Putting to one side the 'E' assist side of things, I'd be paying a lot of money for a bike that I may not be comfortable on wheras my donor bike is likely something I've carefully selected and know it suits me.
- I've no desire to be 'locked in' to a proprietary system that requires me to go to a dealer for servicing/spares/repair

I first put a TSDZ2 on an old (now scrapped) Dawes Super Galaxy, a bike that I'd had for many years and knew to suit my cycling geometry requirements.

Plus points for the TSDZ2
- economy priced
- spares readily available (YT vids for guidance)
- Open Source Software which I'm guessing, can be set to emulate most of the characteristics of the proprietary software on the bespoke ebikes

Minus Points for the TSDZ2
- the economy price point may mean manufacturing quality control is not so high as the likes of Shimano/Bosch et al, so purchase from a seller with proven customer service in the case of any issues (or you are confident in fixing any problems for yourself)
- it's a kit so you need practical skills for installation and after care
- I doubt you'll find a Local Bike Shop to fix problems with a kit installation but fortunatly there's this forum and YT to help you through any issues arising.

I've now done 5 TSDZ2 installations for myself and friends and by and large there have been no problems.

As an aside I recently found a Ridgeback Supernova (circa unknown - anyone?) in a second hand emporium that had hardly been ridden (maybe a couple of hundred miles at most and came from a house clearance from a holiday home in Portugal) whose geometry matched that of my Dawes Galaxy, all for the princely sum of £130. I transferred the motor and a few other bits from the Dawes - it's a great ride.

 

[Nealh]

With the tsdz2 one can select 6 differing types of assist input;
1. Power assist = assistance proportional to pressure on the pedals
2. Torque assist = assistance proportional to torque on the pedals.
3. cadence = simple pedal rotation.
4. emtb assist = assistance with progressive % of torque on the pedals.
5. Hybrid mode = a combo of #1 &#2 , it equates to good power at low rider rpm and then once one increases the rpm the torque assist applies the power better.
6. cruise mode =speed control assistance.
if one counts throttle then 7.

I tried #1 but found it naff but that was in street mode, I then changed some of the power setting %'s and disabled the street mode for much nicer power input.
In street mode the drive is limited to a max of 250w which ever assit level one uses, so disabling it means one can have the extra temporary power that every other system gives.

 

[Wheelie]

If you go for a ready-made ebike with a system such as Bosch or Shimano you are likely to be very locked in for any repairs, and often spares are almost impossible to source even for registered dealers. When time comes for replacement batteries they are likely to be good quality but very expensive.

If you go for a bike with TSD or similar you are much more likely to able to carry out a majority of small repairs yourself; and replace things such as controllers relatively easily.

There are some ready-made bikes that use these more generic components; see Woosh and Wisper for example.

Thank you, I see your point. I notice from your biog that you have 2 second hand Motus'. These are bikes I have considered as a second hand buy as a lot have done very low milage. Have you found supply problems for spares even though it's the mighty Raleigh?

 

[Wheelie]

Putting to one side the 'E' assist side of things, I'd be paying a lot of money for a bike that I may not be comfortable on wheras my donor bike is likely something I've carefully selected and know it suits me.
- I've no desire to be 'locked in' to a proprietary system that requires me to go to a dealer for servicing/spares/repair

I first put a TSDZ2 on an old (now scrapped) Dawes Super Galaxy, a bike that I'd had for many years and knew to suit my cycling geometry requirements.

Thank you. Yes, this is exactly what I have already done with our Galaxy tandem! I fitted a front hub drive to our beloved tandem as it almost feels like part of us. D'oh! Never thought of it that way, maybe getting side-tracked by the idea of a lovely shiny new bike. We do have nice donor bikes, mine is a Kona, my wife's is a dawes with Reynolds tubing.

 

[Wheelie]

With the tsdz2 one can select 6 differing types of assist input;
1. Power assist = assistance proportional to pressure on the pedals
2. Torque assist = assistance proportional to torque on the pedals.
3. cadence = simple pedal rotation.
4. emtb assist = assistance with progressive % of torque on the pedals.
5. Hybrid mode = a combo of #1 &#2 , it equates to good power at low rider rpm and then once one increases the rpm the torque assist applies the power better.
6. cruise mode =speed control assistance.
if one counts throttle then 7.

I tried #1 but found it naff but that was in street mode, I then changed some of the power setting %'s and disabled the street mode for much nicer power input.
In street mode the drive is limited to a max of 250w which ever assit level one uses, so disabling it means one can have the extra temporary power that every other system gives.

Thank you. Interesting, I didn't know there were choices of "style" of input/output. I assume you can then play with all the various power levels in each style to tune it to your desires?

 

[sjpt]

Thank you, I see your point. I notice from your biog that you have 2 second and Motus'. These are bikes I have considered as a second hand buy as a lot have done very low milage. Have you found supply problems for spares even though it's the mighty Raleigh?

Our Motus had a fairly low mileage when we bought it; around 1000 miles for a 2 year old bike. We haven't needed any spares other than regular ones such as tyres, brake blocks and chains. There are tyres and chains advertised as for e-bikes, but we have just used standard ones. The battery (400wh, now 6 years old and a bit over 4000 miles) is still going OK. I think it's lost a bit of capacity and anticipate buying a new one on the next year or so.

We have had two issues with the Motus; both recur every now and then; both down to poor Bosch design.

The rear rack battery mount is very easy to engage and feel correct when it isn't sitting correctly on the rails. Electricity flows and everything works till it doesn't. That sometimes happens even when engaged properly . It's easy enough to fit properly when you know exactly how to slide it down the rails; but all too easy to fit improperly.

The Intuvia display cuts out every now and then as well, due to poorly designed contacts as you slide it in and out. I understand the newer ones have resolved this. It can generally be resolved by careful cleaning of the contacts.

We chose the Motus because we wanted a step-through with hub gears. On a short test ride of another ebike we realised that being caught in too high a gear at the bottom of a hill is more awkward on an ebike than a regular one. Even though we are overall very satisfied with our Motus I would not replace it with another Bosch or similar bike if it disappeared.

We have had the XF07 on the tandem for a few months longer and around the same mileage. No issues at all yet (touch wood). The battery definitely has reduced capacity; again I expect to replace it in the next year or so.

 

[Nealh]

Thank you. Interesting, I didn't know there were choices of "style" of input/output. I assume you can then play with all the various power levels in each style to tune it to your desires?

To get the most out of programming one needs to go down the OSF route, I believe though one can make some adjustments via display input and button pressing.
The OSF offers smoother and better operation after mnay years of input from users around the world. OSF allows for finer tuning of the power levels.

 

[Nealh]

- it's a kit so you need practical skills for installation and after care
- I doubt you'll find a Local Bike Shop to fix problems with a kit installation but fortunatly there's this forum and YT to help you through any issues arising.

There are very few shop or even no shops who even repair propriatary bikes brands as they can't , they are box sellers and component swappers. Nearly anyone with common sense can undo afew nuts or bolts to swap apart out .
Give them a kit bike and they are out of their depth as haven't a clue how to use multimeter correctly or have any knowledge, all they are guided by are computers.

One needs and independant like woosh but mostly all the knowledge is on forums like this or the mnay other around.

The kit bike scenario is much the same , though simple electrical diagnosis is the way forward to understand where the failure has occurred then one can simply try a repair or buy a replacement part.

 

[vidtek]

@Wheelie Lots of good advice on here for you. I fitted my TSDZ2 a couple of years ago, bought from Whoosh, excellent service from them.
I use a bike rack (towbar)on my Nissan Leaf to transport my last century Specialized Crossroads bike. I am a fairly fit 72 year old and have no difficulty lifting the bike onto my bike rack, although I have a ramp for the Thule rack, I have never needed to use it yet.
The TSDZ2 battery slides easily to and from it's cradle and I usually but not always remove it before I put it on the bike rack. The bike weighs about 20kg without it.
The motor itself is pretty light, no more than about 1 1/2 kg. You should have few issues with your motorhome rack as long as your donor bikes are not too heavy.

The roads around the BCP have disjointed (as politely as I can put it) cycleways, the BCP have spent an absolute fortune on bits of new cycleways that end up taking you straight into high-volume traffic lights and roundabouts with nowhere to go. In the meantime we have decaying town centres in Poole Bournemouth and Christchurch with dossers and tossers fake veterans with mangy dogs and manky mattresses strewn all along our town centres. The millions of pounds wasted on these vanity cycle lanes that go nowhere are an absolute disgrace. Rant over......Anyway that's why I drive to somwhere that I can feel safe on my bike, such as the New Forest tracks, the seafront promenade, or the Castlemain trail.

 

[Wheelie]

@Wheelie Lots of good advice on here for you. I fitted my TSDZ2 a couple of years ago, bought from Whoosh, excellent service from them.
I use a bike rack (towbar)on my Nissan Leaf to transport my last century Specialized Crossroads bike. I am a fairly fit 72 year old and have no difficulty lifting the bike onto my bike rack, although I have a ramp for the Thule rack, I have never needed to use it yet.
The TSDZ2 battery slides easily to and from it's cradle and I usually but not always remove it before I put it on the bike rack. The bike weighs about 20kg without it.
The motor itself is pretty light, no more than about 1 1/2 kg. You should have few issues with your motorhome rack as long as your donor bikes are not too heavy.

The roads around the BCP have disjointed (as politely as I can put it) cycleways, the BCP have spent an absolute fortune on bits of new cycleways that end up taking you straight into high-volume traffic lights and roundabouts with nowhere to go. In the meantime we have decaying town centres in Poole Bournemouth and Christchurch with dossers and tossers fake veterans with mangy dogs and manky mattresses strewn all along our town centres. The millions of pounds wasted on these vanity cycle lanes that go nowhere are an absolute disgrace. Rant over......Anyway that's why I drive to somwhere that I can feel safe on my bike, such as the New Forest tracks, the seafront promenade, or the Castlemain trail.

View attachment 49337

Thank you. Yes, I think my mind is made up on the TSDZ2. Your picture makes for a very neat look although I'll probably look at a rack battery as the clearances on both our down tubes are very tight.

 

[vidtek]

Thank you. Yes, I think my mind is made up on the TSDZ2. Your picture makes for a very neat look although I'll probably look at a rack battery as the clearances on both our down tubes are very tight.

This picture is from when I first assembled the bike, my beautiful EOS is sadly no longer mine, the fuel bills were getting unmanageable 18mpg if I was lucky! The wife decreed "it will have to go". Happy wife, happy life (so they tell me) so I bought the Leaf. The bike is looking a bit worse for wear now, 2000 miles and a rather solid lamp-post later...... Still gets me about though.