TSDZ2, 500W - a few questions

[Slimjim]

I've been following a few threads on here, and Endless-sphere regarding the TSDZ2, but as is normal the threads develop and meander over time, and there are a lot of differing opinions, so I'm hoping for any useful recent advice.

I'm a middle-aged mountain biker, recently moved to the foothills of the North Yorkshire moors (not too far from Sutton Bank), and not fit enough these days to make the most of the local trails, and roads.

I've got an older FS Specialized with 26" wheels, and a newer, basic GT hardtail for road or light trail/winter duties - but due to work etc haven't got the legs these days to ride hard for more than an hour or so.

Hence an easily swappable mid-drive kit seems ideal to offer the feeling of young legs and get me out for 20-30-40 miles with suitable effort, rather than using up my meagre leg endurance within an hour of trundling up steep hills. I might occasionally switch the kit between FS and HT, but I realise this could need some careful consideration of chainline on both bikes as they have standard 3x9-speed derailleur set up.

I tried a Focus Bold yesterday with Shimano STEPS and Di2 - lovely bike but at >£4k not a practical purchase if I want to remain married - however it did convince me that I prefer torque-sensing to cadence sensing, as for low-speed/tail riding it seem much more natural. The 15mph cutout is a bit of a disappointment, but I'm aware of the legalities and that over-riding this is possible.

Also, I could effectively buy two kits for less than one decent hardtail Ebike from Focus, Specialized etc, so fit the second to my wife's and get some family miles in.

The TSDZ2 seems a good compromise of cost, power, weight and size (it will hang down/forwards from my bottom bracket, I'll fabricate an alu guard for off-roading), 500W would be double what I can put out for a short period, so in effect I'd have 2-3x my leg-only power, with my added input, and for a lot longer.
80Nm is reasonable (I assume this is actual gearbox output torque, not motor torque), as that's about 45kg of downforce at the pedal, and I only weigh 72kg
The Bafang HD 1000W sounds great, but is heavy (8kg vs 3.6kg for motor), probably more power than I need, more likely to stress the battery, and more likely to get me pulled over by police......

I also have 70 mile round trip to work, could take back roads and have considered occasionally driving halfway, leaving the car and taking the bike out of the boot - this would offset the cost of the conversion a little as I only get 38-40mpg if I'm lucky. I could probably ride the full distance, but I'm wary of running two full recharges per commuting day as that is going to eat into battery lifetime.

If anyone can advise on the following questions, I'd be grateful:

1. If I had a nominal budget of £800 (GBP) and wanted to purchase a full kit, with battery and warranty, which online or physical shop would be sensible?
2. Is this enough to buy the 500W motor kit, with H18 display (my handlebars are already cluttered with gear changers and hydraulic brakes, and I believe the H18 offers increased programming functionality plus options brake and throttle inputs), and a decent battery? I'm guessing 11 to 13Ah - I'd like say 20 miles+ of highest-power assistance off-road with hills and some sweating, 40 miles in medium assistance on road with a few hills
2.b. Are the Dolphin batteries good quality?
2.c What is a realistic number of battery charges before capacity drops/battery dies? Are the quoted figures related to a measurable reduction in battery charge capacity? Or related to terminal death of cells?
2.c What is the max voltage rating of the TSDZ2? I've read differing opinions of what happens if you exceed 48V
3. Is 500W the true continuous rating, and what is the peak power rating?
4. Can I set the system to 250W to be road legal, and easily swap to 500W? And vice-versa? Is tis basically achieved by adjusting the current and some simple math?
5. Regarding the UK 250W/15.Xmph legal limit:
a. Has anyone ever been pulled over for breaching this limit - and what was the outcome?
b. How do the police actually check - if the 500W sticker had fallen off my TSDZ2, do they climb on the bike and test it? Can I deny them the right? They could test speed but not measure power.
c. Presumably programming a smaller wheel size will give a slightly higher 'legal speed' but the odo and speedo will be incorrect (not a problem if I'm running a separate computer/app)
d. (I read that there are calls for the power output to be raised to 500W, but have not heard anything to say speed limit would be increased)

Any advice greatly received, thanks, Adam

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Lets take a step back first. You say you prefer torque sensing to cadence sensing. which cadence sensing system did you try? Did it use current control or speed control? It makes a massive difference.

Secondly, where did you get 8kg for a BBSHD? It's nowhere near that. I'd say it's no more than 5kg.

2. Yes
2b. depends which one you get. dolphin is just a case. it's what's inside that counts.
3. Yes, peak is normally double. How much it produces depends on which controller you use and its settings.
4 No and no. What do you mean by 250 - input power, output power, continuous power, mean power, modal power or what? How would you measure it?
5a. Yes, probably loads. the one I know was told not to use his bike again.
5b. Realistically, they will only act if you're clearly above 15 mph and not pedalling. they can ask you the power.
5c That's flummoxed a few forum members when they did that, then came on here and said the speed didn't change. It still only goes to 15 mph!
5d Nothing in the pipeline for you to base any decision on.

My advice: Hub motor for the road and light trails. Crank drive for rougher trails and serious off-road. You can run any 250w hub-motor at 48v to get a legal yet powerful setup. You get a much smoother and quieter ride with a hub motor if you choose the right components.

 

[Slimjim]

Hello D8ve,

Thanks for the quick response.

www.psppower.com quotes 8kg for the 1000W Bafang, presumably including cranks, ring and display.

The batteries I have seen look to have Samsung cells - thank you for pointing out that Dolphin refers to the case - therefore I need to be careful to check what cells and BMS are fitted.

Re. 250W power - I mean the legal limit - i.e. 'maximum continuous power without overheating' - or words to that effect as per EN xxxxx standard that applies. Hence that would presumably mean output power, since input power will then be related to the electrical>mechanical efficiency of the system.
Agreed on the complexity of measuring this - ideally you'd need something like a torque transducer and speed resolver - hence my point that I don't understand how police can check the max continuous power rating, as the will not carry a dyno with them....and if there are no stickers stating >250W, then nothing illegal. Actually the whole issue of max cont. power rating, without overheating, is complicated as that becomes a question of how high/low the manufacturer has set the thermal cut-out point (on PM motors generally to prevent magnet demag, or insulation and wiring damage afaik)

Understood on the legal aspects - if I go TSDZ2mid-drive + torque sensing then I wouldn't automatically get a throttle input, so will always be pedalling at any speed - hence may not be an obvious contender to pull over.

I'd prefer mid-drive at this stage as I have both a 26" full-sus Specialized Enduro that can take an absolute hammering, and a 27.5" GT hardtail that absolutely hammers my back off-road, so I'd like the option to swap the drive between them from month to month. FS has 25mm bolt-thru front hub, whilst H/T has normal QR hub (and both have different hydraulic brake disc diameters), so front-hub drive not practical. They also have different groupsets so rear cassettes are different hence rear hub drive not practical.
Roads and trails round here have steep hills - torque-sensing would seem to work well offroad as it will respond to the natural pedal-stomping, whereas cadence sensors would (I think) require additional hand control of boost level to control torque at low speed and varying terrain.

I've actually only tried a basic hub-driven cadence sensor city bike a year or two ago so couldn't tell you what make (quick demo at a visitor centre), but can remember that at low speed and tight bends, you had to be careful to co-ordinate pedalling, boost level and steering - a bit like a jet-ski, there's an extra dimension to monitor.

Any advice/experience of particular sellers...?

Thanks, Adam

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Those cheapo hub-motored bikes have crappy control systems. Don't judge all bikes from that. You need to get a go on modern one.

The regulation is on the rated power, not the measured power. There's no test requirements nor method described for measuring the continuous power. Basically, you can use any motor that's stamped or listed as 250w and run as much power through it as you want.

I've never bought one of those motors, so I can't offer any advice.

 

[DouglasXK]

I fitted a 36v 350w TSDZ2 to a Giant Cypress, made my own 500w battery, have ridden 150 enjoyable miles so far and am 70+ yrs old. The installation was easy but some maintenance of the old Giant (at least 10 years old) was very worthwhile; the rim brake pads were replaced and the chain and 34-11 freewheel. As an aside, I have good experience of disc brakes, Magura and lever rim brakes and, whereas I was a disc convert before, I now can't fault the simplicity of the lever rim brakes. They work.

I'm about to replace the tyres. I've always thought the current tyres had a high rolling resistance and anyway I prefer the added visibility of tyres with a white reflective band and Kevlar coating - there's a pyracantha hedge on my route.

Average power consumption is between 5 and 6 whr per mile. I expect to get more than 100 miles typical commuting out of this battery. The range calculation based on the recorded discharge Ahr just about agrees. The first cycle gave 80 miles but a lot of those were using the thumb throttle which I thought was great fun but very wasteful of power. The front chainring had to be removed which left a vacant spot for the TSDZ2 brake kit and sensor on the left side of the handlebar along with the throttle which neatly fits there.

The torque sensor control is pretty good. At the lowest setting, eco, you don't get much assistance but you will get enormous range. Tour gets easier and Sport is really pretty good. Turbo is even better. I run mostly in Tour, probably an age thing. The upright riding position of the Giant is hardly conductive to high speed but flinging everything at it I can get over 30mph. I don't want or need to go any faster. Recorded average speed is 15mph.

Comparing the motor with a Bosch Motus mid drive, the TSDZ2 is quieter and better, actually a lot quieter; with a Neo Cross torque sensor you've got to remember that you're paying for a thing of some beauty which uses power extravagantly but otherwise works very well if noisier.

I rate this TSDZ2 very highly. It cost not very much and was delivered speedily. It is though Chinese and they have a unique approach to sales and product development.

 

[anotherkiwi]

http://www.brightonebikes.co.uk/store/p69/Bafang®_BBS02B_mid_drive_conversion_kit_36V_250W.html

This is a legal 250 W BBS02 (350-500W nominal) motor, it is legal because it has 250 W stamped on it. These motors have been compared favorably to Bosch motors when they are correctly set up.

I've actually only tried a basic hub-driven cadence sensor city bike a year or two ago so couldn't tell you what make (quick demo at a visitor centre), but can remember that at low speed and tight bends, you had to be careful to co-ordinate pedalling, boost level and steering - a bit like a jet-ski, there's an extra dimension to monitor.

I have almost been run over in the car park by a silly old fool on an out of control cheapo hub drive pedelec so I understand where you are coming from. My GSM with sine wave controller does not behave like that. With a cadence controlled mid-motor you have to be in the right gear for the situation - as a confirmed cyclist that will be no problem for you to get hang of. So I can be in a low gear, spin merrily and travel slowly at the highest assistance level if terrain and conditions require it.

 

[Slimjim]

Those cheapo hub-motored bikes have crappy control systems. Don't judge all bikes from that. You need to get a go on modern one.

The regulation is on the rated power, not the measured power. There's no test requirements nor method described for measuring the continuous power. Basically, you can use any motor that's stamped or listed as 250w and run as much power through it as you want.

I've never bought one of those motors, so I can't offer any advice.

Ok thanks D8ve

 

[Slimjim]

I fitted a 36v 350w TSDZ2 to a Giant Cypress, made my own 500w battery, have ridden 150 enjoyable miles so far and am 70+ yrs old. The installation was easy but some maintenance of the old Giant (at least 10 years old) was very worthwhile; the rim brake pads were replaced and the chain and 34-11 freewheel. As an aside, I have good experience of disc brakes, Magura and lever rim brakes and, whereas I was a disc convert before, I now can't fault the simplicity of the lever rim brakes. They work.

I'm about to replace the tyres. I've always thought the current tyres had a high rolling resistance and anyway I prefer the added visibility of tyres with a white reflective band and Kevlar coating - there's a pyracantha hedge on my route.

Average power consumption is between 5 and 6 whr per mile. I expect to get more than 100 miles typical commuting out of this battery. The range calculation based on the recorded discharge Ahr just about agrees. The first cycle gave 80 miles but a lot of those were using the thumb throttle which I thought was great fun but very wasteful of power. The front chainring had to be removed which left a vacant spot for the TSDZ2 brake kit and sensor on the left side of the handlebar along with the throttle which neatly fits there.

The torque sensor control is pretty good. At the lowest setting, eco, you don't get much assistance but you will get enormous range. Tour gets easier and Sport is really pretty good. Turbo is even better. I run mostly in Tour, probably an age thing. The upright riding position of the Giant is hardly conductive to high speed but flinging everything at it I can get over 30mph. I don't want or need to go any faster. Recorded average speed is 15mph.

Comparing the motor with a Bosch Motus mid drive, the TSDZ2 is quieter and better, actually a lot quieter; with a Neo Cross torque sensor you've got to remember that you're paying for a thing of some beauty which uses power extravagantly but otherwise works very well if noisier.

I rate this TSDZ2 very highly. It cost not very much and was delivered speedily. It is though Chinese and they have a unique approach to sales and product development.

Thanks Douglas that's very encouraging, and yes I have experience through my work of the interesting Chinese perspective on quality, although in recent years their products do seem to have improved significantly.

 

[footpump]

hi sj I have the tdz 250w fitted to Carrera subway one,i had to reroute rear brake cable though (there is no space under the moter if your cable runs under the downtube)
1872 miles covered only gripe for me is after 5 minutes display auto shuts off if bike not ridden, but does not always give correct amont of assist when remounting I might have to turn battery on/off.
you can adjust the amp settings via lcd which is handy default 16 not tried a higher setting battery 10.4 range (amps at 12 45miles, amps 16 about 35 flattish terrain mainly use tour.

96 kilos 68years old
the only thing I find sometimes is a twisty slightly uphill trail with the ts system is a bit akward to know whats the best setting as regards gears and mode.
I found this easier on my kudos mtb speed sensor.

douglas would be interested on approx. price uk for 350w vertion incuding taxes /delivery

 

[DouglasXK]

douglas would be interested on approx. price uk for 350w vertion incuding taxes /delivery

$380 + £30 UK charge = £330 approx. although paypal are 1.25 to the £. Delivery 4 days

Are you aware that it takes a few seconds for the torque sensor to be initialised from startup? If you don't wait, the assist is not correct.

 

[Nealh]

TSDZ2 250/350W is available from PSWPower for $318 or about £260 delivered with no duty charge, I wonder if they have a EU warehouse as they offer a few items duty free.

 

[Old Bloke]

Lets take a step back first. You say you prefer torque sensing to cadence sensing. which cadence sensing system did you try? Did it use current control or speed control? It makes a massive difference.

d8veh, what controller would you recommend for something like a Q128C to give smooth control and good torque for slow speed hill climbing (not MTB'ing)?

Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

d8veh, what controller would you recommend for something like a Q128C to give smooth control and good torque for slow speed hill climbing (not MTB'ing)?

Thanks.

Any Kunteng sine wave controller. PSWPower.com have 17 amp and 20 amp. BMSBattery.com have the S06s 15 amp, but only 36v. Their 48v S12S is about 25 amps (keeps changing), which is powerful, but it's big. They also have a 20amp 48v dolphin battery one, which you can use on its own or get the battery with it already installed. Once you've learnt to recognise the labels, you can spot them on Aliexpress too, but make sure it's a sine wave one.

For the best climbing, you want the 201 rpm 48v Q128H, then the 201 rpm 48v Q128C. They don't list the Q128H at 48v at the moment, but I think that's a mistake in the listing. The 201 rpm versions will give a maximum of 19mph. Both the 36v 201 rpm versions climb pretty well and give easy 22 mph cruising if you run them at 48v. Use the Q128C if you have 8 speeds or more on the back.

 

[Old Bloke]

Any Kunteng sine wave controller.....

Thanks d8veh.

 

[Slimjim]

TSDZ2 250/350W is available from PSWPower for $318 or about £260 delivered with no duty charge, I wonder if they have a EU warehouse as they offer a few items duty free.

That's a good price, £700 could buy me a kit with decent quality battery then, Thanks

 

[AndrewJ]

Regarding voltage and cadence, will a 36V battery powered Bafang BBS02 provide the same power as a 48V Bafang BBS02 with the same amp controller as I read somewhere that the higher voltage will affect the cadence? Will attaining a Bafang with a higher amp controller provide be suitable or is it the voltage? I ask as I currently run a TSDZ2 and as I ride a recumbent with shorter cranks I spin at a higher cadence and the motor fails to support at higher cadences. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Regarding voltage and cadence, will a 36V battery powered Bafang BBS02 provide the same power as a 48V Bafang BBS02 with the same amp controller as I read somewhere that the higher voltage will affect the cadence? Will attaining a Bafang with a higher amp controller provide be suitable or is it the voltage? I ask as I currently run a TSDZ2 and as I ride a recumbent with shorter cranks I spin at a higher cadence and the motor fails to support at higher cadences. Thanks.

48v gives 33% more power than 36v. The two motors have different windings, so the speeds of the two motors are approximately the same. To get a higher speed, you'd have to put a 48v controller on a 36v motor.

 

[Weldinpatt]

Hello,the issue of mids needing to be in correct gear . Well yes and no, no longer are zillions of gears required Motors make more power and torque than a human . X-rd3 - Truckrun M-05 500w (BBS02 type) 145Nm no hill too steep 30 kmph easily. I drop into first gear for the steepest hill. Click. Just changed gear, as fast as you can say click , oops just changed gear again. I say don’t put up with cassettes and derailleur systems . An IGH , has perfect chain alignment at all times . No longer do you eat up road on a gear change. My Tsdz2 , 250w is coupled to an X-rd5(w) again all hills , perfect chain line click , click too. A five speed Rohloff, would be the next best advance in e bike gearing solutions. Mind you there’s the Enviolo , Nuvinci Se380n which I really enjoy too. As with all IGH setups maintenance is easy . Vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner further reduces maintenance as do the drums on the SAS hubs fantastic items indeed.

 

[Weldinpatt]

48v gives 33% more power than 36v. The two motors have different windings, so the speeds of the two motors are approximately the same. To get a higher speed, you'd have to put a 48v controller on a 36v motor.

Yes I read the Tsdz2 36v is one of a kind the 48v is another kind. 36v type doesn’t like 48v because heat builds up. The 48v can take 50+ v and runs cooler , revs more , and increase power.