Trigger's Broom

[Cyclezee]

Where do we stand as far as used bikes with throttles is concerned and those sold before 01/01/2016?
My understanding is that those bikes will remain perfectly legal to use indefinitely.
Therefore could those used bikes, working or not, be kept or sold by their owners private and trade be refurbished, have parts replaced if required and kept going legally for ever and a day just like

 

[flecc]

Yes, definitely an answer and I've posted as such previously John.

It would probably be best if the core component, the frame, remained the same for life.

There's the largely theoretical objection that the changed parts might not have conformed to the original CE mark specification or maybe not to the relevant bicycle standards, but that's never going to trip anyone up.

The key thing will be having the original invoice for the e-bike or for the bike and motor kit, to show provenance.
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[anotherkiwi]

It would probably be best if the core component, the frame, remained the same for life.

There's the largely theoretical objection that the changed parts might not have conformed to the original CE mark specification or maybe not to the relevant bicycle standards, but that's never going to trip anyone up.
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There is the new security thing the Germans are working on which prevents changing from original mount parts. Surely if I want to use superior parts on an old frame the resulting product will be better than the original. That is what my daily ride is telling me anyway.

Found the link:

http://www.bike-eu.com/industry-retail-organizations/nieuws/2015/11/german-guideline-on-replacement-of-e-bike-components-10125084

 

[Wisper Bikes]

BEBA, is now a part of the Bicycle Association of Great Britain. As many members of the Forum will know, a small but dedicated team of us have been fighting for the throttle for years.

Flecc is, as usual, absolutely on the money, the throttle was never actually stated as legal in the UK, so it is not being taken away from us. However the use of the throttle in the UK has made it very clear that it's inclusion makes cycling more inclusive, hence us fighting for legislation to enable us to keep it.

Because of the involvement of BEBA members, the DFT have already agreed we can keep an independent throttle on an EAPC with out the need for a rider to wear a helmet or register the bike etc, so we are half way there. We need now to be given the method to enable us the get the SVA required. It seems, at the moment, that simply taking the bike WITH the EXACT EN15194 certification to a test centre will achieve SVA, we are hoping this will cost about £50.00.

Through the Electric Bike Group (EBG) of the BAGB we are working on the SVA method now. There is small group of EBG members, Juicy, Batribike and Wisper (Amps) being three of them, who put hundreds of pounds into a fund every year through membership fees to help finance a team of BAGB engineers and lobbyists to take the fight forward. We are doing everything we can. We hope to have some guidance by the end of January.

All the best, David

PS If any manufacturer, importer or distributor would like to become a part of the group, even if you can only help through a membership fee and cannot spare the time to come to the meetings, please drop me a line. If as an industry we really want to be able to use a throttle completely legally and make cycling even more inclusive, please get involved and don't leave it up to the usual suspects! :0)

 

[flecc]

There is the new security thing the Germans are working on which prevents changing from original mount parts. Surely if I want to use superior parts on an old frame the resulting product will be better than the original. That is what my daily ride is telling me anyway.

Found the link:

http://www.bike-eu.com/industry-retail-organizations/nieuws/2015/11/german-guideline-on-replacement-of-e-bike-components-10125084

I doubt we need worry about this, the Germans are always trying to introduce anti-Oriental measures but the EU doesn't usually buy their arguments. For example they've tried a few times to introduce an over 100bhp ban for motorcycles on a safety pretence, simply because BMW cannot match the Japanese bikes, but the EU have rejected each attempt.
.

 

[flecc]

BEBA, is now a part of the Bicycle Association of Great Britain. As many members of the Forum will know, a small but dedicated team of us have been fighting for the throttle for years.

We need now to be given the method to enable us the get the SVA required. It seems, at the moment, that simply taking the bike WITH the EXACT EN15194 certification to a test centre will achieve SVA, we are hoping this will cost about £50.00.

Through the Electric Bike Group (EBG) of the BAGB we are working on the SVA method now. There is small group of EBG members, Juicy, Batribike and Wisper (Amps) being three of them, who put hundreds of pounds into a fund every year through membership fees to help finance a team of BAGB engineers and lobbyists to take the fight forward. We are doing everything we can. We hope to have some guidance by the end of January.

Excellent news David, I'm sure all the private members of this forum will be grateful for your combined efforts on their behalf and I hope you get more support from the trade than you did with BEBA originally.
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[Yamdude]

I doubt we need worry about this, the Germans are always trying to introduce anti-Oriental measures but the EU doesn't usually buy their arguments. For example they've tried a few times to introduce an over 100bhp ban for motorcycles on a safety pretence, simply because BMW cannot match the Japanese bikes, but the EU have rejected each attempt.
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The only thing BMW motorcycles cant match the Japanese on, is their supreme reliability. They can more than compete with them on power. Their BMW S1000RR sports bike is almost 200 BHP and they have many more models that are well over the 100 BHP.

 

[flecc]

The only thing BMW motorcycles cant match the Japanese on, is their supreme reliability. They can more than compete with them on power. Their BMW S1000RR sports bike is almost 200 BHP and they have many more models that are well over the 100 BHP.

Agreed, they can and do now, but the attempts I referred to were historic, quoted as an example of these German anti-Oriental attempts. In essence their attempts were more likely to be trying to artificially level the playing field, rather than offsetting technical inability.
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[Yamdude]

The main thing that has stopped legislation against motorcycles is MC groups like MAG and to a lesser extent now the BMF. These groups have actively lobbied government against anything we deem erodes our freedoms. They have successfully argued against the infamous leg protectors back in the 80's through to the 100 bhp limit, compusary Hi-Viz and the latest one of Type Approval, where no changes could be made to a motorcycle from its factory spec.
Of course, the Ebike industry and more to the point amount of riders, is a lot smaller so doesn't have these lobby groups.

 

[shemozzle999]

BEBA, is now a part of the Bicycle Association of Great Britain. As many members of the Forum will know, a small but dedicated team of us have been fighting for the throttle for years.

Flecc is, as usual, absolutely on the money, the throttle was never actually stated as legal in the UK, so it is not being taken away from us. However the use of the throttle in the UK has made it very clear that it's inclusion makes cycling more inclusive, hence us fighting for legislation to enable us to keep it.

Because of the involvement of BEBA members, the DFT have already agreed we can keep an independent throttle on an EAPC with out the need for a rider to wear a helmet or register the bike etc, so we are half way there. We need now to be given the method to enable us the get the SVA required. It seems, at the moment, that simply taking the bike WITH the EXACT EN15194 certification to a test centre will achieve SVA, we are hoping this will cost about £50.00.

Through the Electric Bike Group (EBG) of the BAGB we are working on the SVA method now. There is small group of EBG members, Juicy, Batribike and Wisper (Amps) being three of them, who put hundreds of pounds into a fund every year through membership fees to help finance a team of BAGB engineers and lobbyists to take the fight forward. We are doing everything we can. We hope to have some guidance by the end of January.

All the best, David

PS If any manufacturer, importer or distributor would like to become a part of the group, even if you can only help through a membership fee and cannot spare the time to come to the meetings, please drop me a line. If as an industry we really want to be able to use a throttle completely legally and make cycling even more inclusive, please get involved and don't leave it up to the usual suspects! :0)

Hi David,

Might be worth reading this, it might add to the persuasion discussion with the authorities, focusing on discrimination element either direct or indirect.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

 

[flecc]

The main thing that has stopped legislation against motorcycles is MC groups like MAG and to a lesser extent now the BMF.

Sadly they are sometimes also e-bikers biggest enemy, since they and the m/c trade have argued aggressively against measures like throttles and additional assist speed and/or power. Of course it's the trade that's behind this, not wanting e-bikes to make inroads into their business.
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[Yamdude]

Sadly they are sometimes also e-bikers biggest enemy, since they and the m/c trade have argued aggressively against measures like throttles and additional assist speed and/or power. Of course it's the trade that's behind this, not wanting e-bikes to make inroads into their business.
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I find it hard to fathom why the motorcycle industry would be bothered about 15.5 mph Ebikes.
Which part of the trade, dealers or manufacturers ?

 

[flecc]

I find it hard to fathom why the motorcycle industry would be bothered about 15.5 mph Ebikes.
Which part of the trade, dealers or manufacturers ?

It's believed that a threat to moped sales is perceived as their fear from too much liberalisation of e-bikes or permission for the S class. The latter is the biggest threat since it permits moped performance with far less bureaucracy, hence it's popularity in Germany. I think it's the trade who are in the forefront of opposition, but for the detail you'd need to speak to an ex BEBA man since they were the ones facing the vigorous opposition.

BEBA actually posted more than once about this opposition in this forum long ago but the Search facility doesn't seem good enough to find links.
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[Yamdude]

It's believed that a threat to moped sales is perceived as their fear from too much liberalisation of e-bikes or permission for the S class. The latter is the biggest threat since it permits moped performance with far less bureaucracy, hence it's popularity in Germany. I think it's the trade who are in the forefront of opposition, but for the detail you'd need to speak to an ex BEBA man since they were the ones facing the vigorous opposition.

BEBA actually posted more than once about this opposition in this forum long ago but the Search facility doesn't seem good enough to find links.
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Hmmm...... all seems a bit ambiguous and rumour fed to me.
Until i see proof that the motorcycle trade, and who exactly in the motorcycle trade, have argued aggressively against throttles on Ebikes i cant take it seriously.

 

[flecc]

Hmmm...... all seems a bit ambiguous and rumour fed to me.
Until i see proof that the motorcycle trade, and who exactly in the motorcycle trade, have argued aggressively against throttles on Ebikes i cant take it seriously.

There's no ambiguity or rumour involved, motorcycle interests have been the main opposition to liberalisation of ebike rules here and in the EU, and David Miall in his past BEBA capacity among others has said as much on various occasions.

The motorcycle interest groups are invited to and attend all the discussions on this matter, both UK and EU, since the type approval law on two and three wheel powered vehicles is what is involved, so it matters to them.

But frankly I don't care whether you take it seriously or not, I'm satisfied with knowing the facts in this matter.
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[Yamdude]

There's no ambiguity or rumour involved, motorcycle interests have been the main opposition to liberalisation of ebike rules here and in the EU, and David Miall in his past BEBA capacity among others has said as much on various occasions.

The motorcycle interest groups are invited to and attend all the discussions on this matter, both UK and EU, since the type approval law on two and three wheel powered vehicles is what is involved, so it matters to them.

But frankly I don't care whether you take it seriously or not, I'm satisfied with knowing the facts in this matter.
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I dont accept something as fact, just because someone says it on an internet forum.
Who are these motorcycle interest groups ?

 

[flecc]

I dont accept something as fact, just because someone says it on an internet forum.
Who are these motorcycle interest groups ?

Ask David Miall if you want to know precise details, he will know with greater accuracy than me exactly who said what in these meetings, since I wasn't present.

Here's a link to open a conversation with him.
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[Yamdude]

Ask David Miall if you want to know precise details, he will know with greater accuracy than me exactly who said what in these meetings, since I wasn't present.

Here's a link to open a conversation with him.
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I'm sure if he posts on this forum, then he'll join this thread..... I also still cant understand why MAG or the BMF would be at meetings for BEBA ? They are not trade industry groups, they are for motorcyclists.

 

[flecc]

I'm sure if he posts on this forum, then he'll join this thread..... I also still cant understand why MAG or the BMF would be at meetings for BEBA ? They are not trade industry groups, they are for motorcyclists.

Perhaps we are at cross purposes, I haven't mentioned those groups. When I posted this:

"Sadly they are sometimes also e-bikers biggest enemy,"

I meant motorcycle trade/industry interests, not motorcyclists. My fault, I should have been more specific and I can see how that could seem to mean otherwise.

The opposition of course is from the those who benefit from selling mopeds etc. They aren't alone though, more opposition has come from cycling interests, we really are surrounded by enemies on both sides!
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[Yamdude]

Perhaps we are at cross purposes, I haven't mentioned those groups. When I posted this:

"Sadly they are sometimes also e-bikers biggest enemy,"

I meant motorcycle trade/industry interests, not motorcyclists. My fault, I should have been more specific and I can see how that could seem to mean otherwise.

The opposition of course is from the those who benefit from selling mopeds etc. They aren't alone though, more opposition has come from cycling interests, we really are surrounded by enemies on both sides!
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You selectively quoted part of my post that mention MAG & BMF..... then said 'they and the mc trade'

I'll agree with you about the cycling community..... I've constantly seen prejudice from them about Ebikes, but never from the motorcycle industry, whether that be individual bikers, mc traders, or mc manufacturers. Neither can i find anything on the net confirming it.