Tough hills?.. Get lost?.. Share it here!

[coops]

I recently ventured in a new direction towards hillier local territory, for a change, and apart from losing my way (that's the fun of exploring new areas & less trodden routes!), several times, and one impossibly steeply rising section of "cycle path", shortly after an obstacle necessitating dismounting, oh and did I say it was quite a hot sunny day too... well, apart from all that I was doing ok... but then I came to this hill on the road and it did look quite steep, but not too long - only 150m or so - got less than halfway up but by then I'd had enough & found a shortcut back to the gentler sloping but busier main road to continue my trip.

Anyway, I've just now looked on the map out of curiosity, as its not an extremely hilly area and though I know there are some about, I was surprised to encounter such a steep hill on my route - a sustrans one I think - so I've just checked the gradient to see I'm not going soft or crazy, and it seems that short stretch of road is around 16.5% or 1 in 6! No wonder it caused me trouble...

I think I'll be scrutinising (& planning) my routes more carefully in future. That day my battery gave up after 18 miles, & still 12 miles from home probably due to the many wrong turns & failed hill climbs, and I nearly lost my map on the way home, twice!

On the plus side, I did get a very pleasant, gentle cooling shower in the thunderstorm which barely glanced my return route, which was not too up & down but I was so glad I'd lowered my Torq's gearing by 23% or so, and my lasting memory was a carefree freewheel at around 30mph on a rather nice treelined straight downhill stretch alongside a very pleasant looking park; the following cars seemed unsure what to do, and quite frankly I didn't care too much either .

If you've had trouble with particular hills and you know their gradients, it may be useful information for others if you post them along with your bike type & "fitness level" if pedalling.

I suppose I'd put myself in the "fairly capable but definitely rusty" category .

I'm also wondering if it may be worthwhile having a sort of "database" of less obvious local routes suited for cycling (a sort of cyclist's "knowledge" if you like) which we can add to as we find them, as a way to share the information & give some pointers (maybe such a cycling facility already exists, other than sustrans? I've seen a local one but there was not a great deal of information, plus its format made it less generally useful).

There may not be so much overlap of our local areas (though I detect the start of a local Manchester "cluster"! Eat your heart out Grimsby, we're on the increase!), but it may grow in time & could also encourage more to give it a go . Just an idea, any thoughts & suggestions welcome.

Stuart.

 

[Ian]

I've encountered steep hills on sustrans cycle routes Stuart, it seems their top priority is to avoid busy roads, hills come second. There are also instances where the cycle route takes a long detour to avoid a short stretch of A or B road.

I like the idea of database of cycle routes as the Sustrans site fails to list many perfectly suitable routes including some dedicated cycle paths created by local authorities.

Perhaps we could have a thread where members could post routes they have found. To be effective it would have to be well organised though with properly titled posts (eg Town, county), and the thread being reserved for routes only, any chat taking place elsewhere to avoid clutter.

In order to illustrate routes small online Ordnance Survey maps are available here, it is OK to use or link to up to 10 of these maps which are 2km x 2km at 1:25000, however please read the T&C before doing so.

Sample map here. (Image reproduced with permission of Ordnance Survey and Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland)

 

[JohnInStockie]

Hi Coops

I had been using the maps on the CycleGM website, but unfortunately they have taken them off, in fact the website itself looks like its beginning to 'lose support' with some of the links not working.

Personally, I grown to dislike many of the off-road facilities, theres too many pointless cyclepaths designed to keep bikes away from cars, and not to provide safe cycling if you understand what I mean. And Ive found that most of the trails are sodden and very poorly maintained if maintained at all.

So if you do come across some good routes, then let us know.

John

 

[coops]

I thought that too, Ian, about how it may be tricky to organise the routes information... knowing us, we'll end up doing it informally which may not be a bad thing & altogether less "rigid" structure-wise, though less useful when you want to search for a specific route of course . I guess the "knowledge" is best organised in our heads . Cheers for the OSmap links, looks quite neat: I'd seen that but never tried it - your linked example seems not to work though Ian?... It'd be great if there's a way to post/link maps with the routes marked out on them, perhaps linked to descriptions of individual parts - then a whole network of routes for any area would be easily visible at a glance (a sort of "mental map" representation) and organisation would be much easier, just the correct links to the description location required .

I feel the same as both of you about sustrans/cycleways in general; I hope some are not so bad at least... a belated thanks for the CycleGM link you gave long ago John, very useful have you seen the "friends of the earth" & city council "love your bike" initiative? Its a start, but lacks in either scope or approach I think...

What I dislike most on exclusive or pedestrian shared routes, other than than the points you make, are the "motorbike prevention" measures which entail regular slowing or dismounting to manoeuvre around obstacles. I'm lucky to live very near the "fallowfield loop", the longest unbroken single cycleway in the UK I've heard which gets its name from the disused railway line it mostly follows, 10miles or so I think? However, its not at all flat, nor a loop & its plagued by those measures I mention! Still beats the roads for relaxing cycling
though, indeed I see many cyclists using it now despite the flaws - and they're probably the fitter for it!

I'll certainly let you know if I find any good routes as I explore further John - my trip above was in your neck of the woods & the hill in Lower Bredbury, on a residential road, Grid reference SJ922912 (it looks highly innocuous on all maps, especially OS online, until you look closely!) . I reached that point via the reasonably good, though very hilly, slightly uneven in places with several "obstacles" & probably currently sodden & muddy (in case you were to try it now!) route south through Reddish Vale from near the railway viaduct at Reddish towards Stockport, which you may know anyway: a surprisingly green & wooded route along a river valley for its proximity to Central Manchester!

Stuart.

 

[pgbw]

If we want to record routes, it might be that what we need is something that anyone can edit, where there's a simple structure to allow routes to be added and linked to regions, areas and other things. From my experience, that sounds like a wiki.

Is there an obvious wiki to use (e.g. cycling organisation, such as CTC)? If not, is there a way to run a wiki here?

 

[pgbw]

After some more research...

The Dutch have a wiki at Fietsroutes Vlaanderen - Fietsroutes Belgie which shows it's possible (at least, in Dutch).

The CTC have a routes system which is available to members, and 'write only' - not suitable for collaboration, but at least able to accept uploads. The trouble with that is that Pedelecers may fear that they are at risk of being frowned on, and most of the routes I've seens are serious: 40, 60 100+ miles (reminds me of the Parable of the Sower).

There are a number of other route planners listed at Bike for all, but they also look as if they are either run by a Quango, or non-collaborative. Whether any of them would be Pedelec friendly is something I haven't tried to assess.

 

[coops]

Thanks for your research & ideas pgbw - very extensive! .

I'll have a look at those, and I agree it may well be possible, or easier, to use some pre-existing system, though only if its suitable for the purpose & user-friendly, as you say .

I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to work with bike organisations, although our bike use can be different from unpowered bikes, longer and more continuous routes being preferred, and the other extreme of cycling may have different needs too, with 100+ mile routes & may also frown upon electrics as you say...

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

I suppose we could shock the CTC by someone asking how many charging stations there were on a 100 mile route.
.

 

[coops]

....Or if the "club" is as narrow-minded as it sounds, how about we start PETA - the Personal Electric Transport Association .

EDIT: Already used... sounds like the blue peter dog anyway! (Petra) .

Stuart.

 

[JohnInStockie]

Hey Stuart, virtually on my doorstep

That Fallowfield route is a nice long one, from memory more or less Droylsden to Chorlton isnt it? I used to use the Trans Pennine Trail from Chorlton to Stockport (the pyramid) where it comes out at a pub .

Couldnt see the contours on that location except with a magnifying glass on the OS website, I take it there were a few?

John

 

[coops]

I'll have to keep an eye open for a Twist on my travels then John hopefully not roadside having punctures fixed .

First time I'd been that way and not the easiest, hill, route or navigation wise to cycle in but I'm the wiser for my trip . The trans pennine trail could be really useful, running along the Mersey Valley as it does, but for the poor muddy, often heavily rutted & stony surface along much of it as you leave Chorlton (would that pub be Jackson's Boat, near Sale Water Park? I used to live almost within eyeshot of there some years ago my old stomping ground!): a real shame since it would make a brilliant cycle route...

Another quite useful-sounding local project I heard of was a plan to improve the towpath of the Bridgewater Canal, to create a clean, green cycle corridor into Manchester centre from Sale way, and beyond (lottery funded scheme I think)... so I went down to see whats been done.... sadly little or nothing, it seems!

Re the Bredbury hill, its very subtle as I said: only two contours on my 1:50000 landranger, so only between 10 or 20m height change... but over only about 60m or so on the ground, so 1 in 6 or more! I quickly gave up anyway as I was a bit defeated at the time, having already taken a few wrong turns (though I thoroughly enjoyed the freewheel downhill alongside Woodbank Park, I think it is! There's no big hills in my part of Manchester!) but now I know the gradient, my confidence with hills in the Torq isn't quite so dented as at the time .

I really hope, in time, to establish a network of relatively traffic-free local routes good for cycling, and the times they can be used too, by more extensive exploration.

Given the poor design & condition of many cycle routes, I think it'd serve the planners & authorities right if, after upgrading the Torq by fitting rear V-brakes for better stopping power & m+ tyres, I get properly cycle fit and get around on the road at near car speeds (with spare battery, of course!).

Stuart.

 

[JohnInStockie]

I'll have to keep an eye open for a Twist on my travels then John hopefully not roadside having punctures fixed.

I'll second that

would that pub be Jackson's Boat, near Sale Water Park?

No, although I know that one well too, its one at the Stockport end, tables outside and food server without crossing a road! I know very much what you mean about the TPT, great for sunny days and the kids, but thats it.

Another quite useful-sounding local project I heard of was a plan to improve the towpath of the Bridgewater Canal, to create a clean, green cycle corridor into Manchester centre from Sale way, and beyond (lottery funded scheme I think)... so I went down to see whats been done.... sadly little or nothing, it seems!

Yes I think a lot of people in the Eccles area were counting on that as an off road route to Sale and the water park, but as usual, empty promises...

Re the Bredbury hill, if you go a bit further into Romily then you will encounter a number of hills, so only bother if thats what you want. Personally, I dont. I would have liked to have given it a go, but with only getting say 16 miles on the flat on my Twist, show me some hills, and that drops to 11 miles, hardly worth going.

I'm not so bothered any more about traffic free. I used to really be bothered, but the terribly poor efforts done by the councils just depress me. I researched the internet on cycles accident data and found numbers of sites and reports where the data suggested that cyclists were far safer ON road rather than off it. From what I read, it wasnt even close, and it was mainly due to maintenance, muggings or random attacks. The 'dangers' on road were at junctions, where the car drivers simply werent looking, and so I have a policy of saying waving thanks to a driver when they wait for me to cross (whether they are scowling or not).

So from now on, I am strictly pro lanes-on-road.

Given the poor design & condition of many cycle routes, I think it'd serve the planners & authorities right if, after upgrading the Torq by fitting rear V-brakes for better stopping power & m+ tyres, I get properly cycle fit and get around on the road at near car speeds (with spare battery, of course!).

Now your talking. Its my goal to get to the point of averaging 20+ mph to and from work on a bike. We know it can be achieved, Fleccs doing it and he's in his 70's!! We just need 40 years in the bike industry and an engineering brain....

John

 

[JohnInStockie]

Oh and to lose a stone or 4 and get as fit as Chris Boardman, and then Flecc, you better watch out

 

[flecc]

Oh and to lose a stone or 4 and get as fit as Chris Boardman, and then Flecc, you better watch out

You and Stuart don't have a problem, you just have to do nothing to overtake me, my next age decade being eighties.

Then even spinach won't help.
.

 

[coops]

Re the Bredbury hill, if you go a bit further into Romily then you will encounter a number of hills

Yes, in Stockport & to the west it looks difficult to avoid hills...

Thanks for the heads up on the off-road accident stats - I did feel a little "uncomfortable" on the more isolated tracks, probably less stressed than I do in traffic on busy roads, but you're bang on about the poor provision of off-road tracks: I find the on-road ones are dangerous though, not just dodging the cars randomly parked in the cycle lane, but also the well-documented cases of obstacles & confused or disappearing routes... its all a mess really, but I hope to at least find a system of road use & network of routes, as I said, which helps .

Now your talking. Its my goal to get to the point of averaging 20+ mph to and from work on a bike. We know it can be achieved, Fleccs doing it and he's in his 70's!! We just need 40 years in the bike industry and an engineering brain....

...and plenty of either battery or legpower! Could do with a traffic lights over-ride button too for 20+mph average speeds - they slow me up more than anything, though also more difficult if you have hills too...

I'm not certain about the Twist's maximum range, but I think your bike could do with a bit of a check-up by a mechanic John! could be either your battery's capacity has decreased, or that front wheel friction problem is noticeably reducing efficiency & wasting power - I wonder if flecc or any other Twist owner's might shed some light on that?

All the best John,

Stuart.

 

[coops]

You and Stuart don't have a problem, you just have to do nothing to overtake me

Except its a lack of exercise which contributed to my current situation, so I hate to think what problems doing nothing might lead to! .

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

That range for John is about correct I think Stuart.

The original Twist lite did about 20 miles with 6.5 Ah and its Nexus 3 speed, as found by both A to B and myself on the new battery. Changing to other gearhubs spoils that though, the slightly higher geared SRAM P5 that I fitted and which John has reduced that to 17 miles for me, and Flying Kiwi reports 18 miles.

John is substantially heavier than me though, so 1 or 2 miles less sounds reasonable. Also, I seem to remember that Johns bike had been in stock for a while and the battery did have some case damage so might have been run a few times on demonstration, so could be very slightly below new capacity.

so I hate to think what problems doing nothing might lead to! .

Stuart.

Living on benefits?
.

 

[coops]

Thanks for clearing up the Twist battery range flecc: my concerns over John's range are unfounded then . It's a shame that extra Twist batteries seem not easy to come by then, eh John? If you really need or want the extra range, that is.

Living on benefits?

... or living without the benefits of electric bikes, at least! .

Stuart.

 

[JohnInStockie]

You and Stuart don't have a problem, you just have to do nothing to overtake me, my next age decade being eighties.

Hmmm, I think I'll wait and see (dont like counting chickens)

 

[JohnInStockie]

It's a shame that extra Twist batteries seem not easy to come by then, eh John? If you really need or want the extra range, that is.

I think its a shame. I was planning to go seeking some advice on using button cells in Twist battery case and so I bought 4 of the Profitexx 11Ah NiMH D cell button batteries that are for sale on ebay. So far they have been on charge for about 2 weeks solid in a standard charger that claims to be able to charge a 3Ah D cell in about 30 hours. So I am not sure if they are what they claim to be. I think I need 11-12Ah for my purposes to be on the safe side. Any thoughts?

I have also raised the slimline seat to the point where I can now push my leg to straight at the full extent of the crank range (but which also means I MUST get of the bike to stop). That seems to have added some speed and makes the bike easier to ride. Has anyone else done this?

The current issue I have is that the frame just seems an inch or two too small. I would like to put a straight bar on to get a bit lower, but I think the short frame would make it a bit of a strain on my back. What do you think?

John