Tonaro Princess Battery Range (problem)

[wombatz]

I wonder whether anyone could help me with this:

Despite the excellent (and ongoing) customer service support from Powerpedals, my new Tonaro Princess (hub driven) doesn't do more than 10miles per charge. I have tried it on lowest level assistance and on generally flattish roads, no headwind (although I live edge of Peak District - so includes a fair few 10 percent hills - guessing!). I am currently less than 50Kg, used until very recently, be a fit and keen mountain biker.

Phil gas sen me up replacement battery (36V 10Ah) battery and charger to try. The outcome is the same. The charger goes for 2.5hours (too little?) and turns from red to green. The little LED lights on top of the battery itself (presumably a rough idea of the state of batteries) do not light up when little button is pressed.

The LEDs on the bike handlebar - the fuel guage - do not reduce in this 10 mile range (except under load) just going from 4 greens + 1 red lit to nothing! (“The battery is a wild animal and artificial intelligence domesticates it.” Battery University springs to mind!)


I guess I need to buy a multimeter to check battery voltage? (errr...somehow - no clear positive and negs to connect to!)

Thank you for the forum anyway. It is full of good reading. Although I don't understand alot of it, with interesting differences of opinion. eg on initial battery charging

"Instructions to charge a new battery for eight hours are seen as “old school” from the nickel battery days". (Battery University)

While a recent post says
"Hi We recommend with our battery's you leave them on for 12 hours the first 6 charges to balance out the cells in the battery". (Banbury Frank)

Ahhh maybe that is it?? I have only given each of the batteries 1 initial long (10 hour) charge?

Wombatz-the -curiously - perplexed -ebiker

 

[flecc]

It seems there's a fault here, since the meter LEDs should gradually go out one by one as the battery content is used. I believe from your symptoms that the low voltage safety cutout may be operating to soon at too high a voltage. When it cuts out with battery LEDs out, is it always on a climb under full load?

As for battery university, since the author was last in the business there have been many developments in battery chemistry and cell construction, and not all are the same or requiring the same treatment.
.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi

Hear is the lowdown on charging a NEW battery in layman terms

All modern battery's have a BMS Battery management System

All battery's have a bank off cells

Li-ion cells are 3.7 volts so a 36 volt battery


LiFepo4 cells are 3.2 volts

Each cell should be the same voltage so the don't fight each other in the Bank

The BMS Has a single lead from the BMS to each cell or bank off cells so it can monitor them separately

It then Bulk charges the battery looks at the individual cells if the are over the Desired voltage the a transistor Switches in a resistor taking the voltage down Then the charger will cut in topping up any low voltage cells This takes about 6 charge discharge cycles then the battery will be optimized for Capacity and range If you don't leave the battery connected over night it cant perform this initial Crucial operation

It is called Balancing the Battery pack the charger will cut in and out

Frank

 

[funkylyn]

Hi Wombatz,

If I was you I would put your trust in Phil to sort it.
There is obviously an ongoing problem.

I had one of these Princess' last year on test and got way more mileage than that from it.
I took it along the Tarka trail, which is fairly flat, for a few days and the only time I actually ran the battery down was when I got carried away enjoying the strong throttle power on the first day, but still got 14 miles from it and I can promise you...I am more than 50 kgs !!

I think the best I got out of it on medium assist was about 24 miles.

Hope you get it sorted soon, as for battery charging I always do 3 complete discharges with a new battery and have never had any problems with any of them, including my new Tonaro Esprit,

Lynda

 

[JuicyBike]

I know that too many cooks can spoil a broth, but as I notice you are "on the edge of the Peak District", if you want any help, either you or Phil, you're welcome to call in.

We have our share of problems and often solve locally, via a customer's local bike shop. Sometimes the hardest part is finding a local shop willing to help diagnose and repair, but generally we succeed by doggedly phoning LBS's around the customer's postcode, unless we have a stockist nearby.

 

[wombatz]

Wow! many thanks for the suggestions and comments.

Flecc - the bike ran out of power on the flat once and again on a slight hill (not under much load). I was incorrect when I said the tiny LEDs on the battery itself did not work as you have to have the key in the on position! Drrr. So seems like the battery is fully charged from that. The low voltage cut off thing is in the battery I guess. Strange that both batteries behaving the same though. Unless there is some electronic stuff on the bike that is faulty. Wombatz is just interestingly puzzling by the way - as no knowledge of physics etc


Thanks Banbury Frank. Got a better idea of balancing - the cells are like little soldiers all in a line and all have to be identical with their provisions before they fight properly. Would a ill matched balance be enough to account for such a poor 30% range though? I am going to try and long charge one battery now. Discharge and long charge a few times. Is it now too late though? as the battery has been charged within the 20-80% range since. Cos you put in bold NEW battery.

Funklyn - just the person! As you have got the bike that Phil has said I can upgrade to. Wombatz is dithering though. Tempted (very) with a crank drive. What is the main riding difference you notice? When I ride the Princess it seems like I out in no effort at all (even with my less than perfect current health). My cadence is too high for useful effort - if you know what I mean. Also when you are traffic weaving, stopping and starting - is it easier? Does the motor cut in and out in the same way? Anyway very tempted especially as there's a few hills up here! Would prefer the battery weight to be low and central (like Princess) though (more noticeable as an ebike though I guess). But that is personal preference and a minor thing. Are you alot happier with the Esprit over the Princess?

Juicy Bikes - brilliant - it is good to know there is help on the doorstep!

 

[funkylyn]

Funklyn - just the person! As you have got the bike that Phil has said I can upgrade to. Wombatz is dithering though. Tempted (very) with a crank drive. What is the main riding difference you notice? When I ride the Princess it seems like I out in no effort at all (even with my less than perfect current health). My cadence is too high for useful effort - if you know what I mean. Also when you are traffic weaving, stopping and starting - is it easier? Does the motor cut in and out in the same way? Anyway very tempted especially as there's a few hills up here! Would prefer the battery weight to be low and central (like Princess) though (more noticeable as an ebike though I guess). But that is personal preference and a minor thing. Are you alot happier with the Esprit over the Princess?

Absolutely chalk and cheese.....there is NO comparison !

I am more than satisfied with my Esprit, yes, you put in more effort with the crank drive, and you have to get used to using the hub gears.......I felt like I had been a very lazy cyclist before the Esprit .

I have tested it now on some very steep hills and it has always got me up, giving me the confidence to go anywhere on it knowing it will get me there and back.

Being able to change gears without stopping is really good, having the throttle still to set off safely in traffic is great, the battery is light so better positioned under the rear rack I think, also, if need be you can add panniers and hide the battery altogether.
The range is good too and you always have the option of adding another battery if you needed it.......replacement battery prices are reasonable.

Altogether for the money I think its amazing value, a great bike and I really really love it.
Pity you arent closer as you would have been welcome to try it.

All I can say is if you like the Princess (problems aside ), you will LOVE the Esprit......well worth the upgrade.

Lynda

 

[flecc]

Strange that both batteries behaving the same though. Unless there is some electronic stuff on the bike that is faulty.

The low voltage cutoff can be in the bike's controller, it is on many models, so changing batteries makes no difference if that's the problem.

You can do a conditioning cycle of full discharge and full charge at any time, once is sufficient if that's the problem, though I doubt it is.

 

[wombatz]

Decision made! With the help from Phil from Powerpedals I'll upgrade to an Esprit. I like the idea of more conventional gearing while riding with motor driving through the crank. The upright riding style is a new one too. Many years head down looking at tarmac....and rocks. I'll get a view!

So exciting......

 

[funkylyn]

Well done Wombatz.......let us know how you get on.

You are going to LOVE it.....

I bet you cant wait

Lynda

 

[shemozzle999]

If you have been given a new battery and charger I would suspect either the power wiring circuit through to the motor i.e. a bad connector joint giving a voltage drop across the joint and subsequent heating of that joint or a motor phase problem, maybe a blown hall sensor permanently powering one of the coils causing irregular non-smooth rotation and draining the battery without giving any rotational power. Check to see if any of the power feed cables get warm or the motor runs smoothly at the lowest possible throttle setting from a stationary start.

 

[funkylyn]

If you have been given a new battery and charger I would suspect either the power wiring circuit through to the motor i.e. a bad connector joint giving a voltage drop across the joint and subsequent heating of that joint or a motor phase problem, maybe a blown hall sensor permanently powering one of the coils causing irregular non-smooth rotation and draining the battery without giving any rotational power. Check to see if any of the power feed cables get warm or the motor runs smoothly at the lowest possible throttle setting from a stationary start.

I think Wombatz is probably past caring now shemozzle.......now the new bike is arriving
.........that can now be Phils problem........would be interesting to hear back from him though to see exactly what WAS wrong........you could well be right.

Lynda

 

[wombatz]

lol yes you are right Wombatz is better riding bikes than fixing them. Can just about manage to swop batteries and chargers.....

Esprit should get a testing on the mini roller coaster rides of the south Devon hills soon, so will let you know. So far the Princess ebike has been more than competent in getting me and my heavy shopping up a loooong hill to my house. Now to see what it offers the 'cycle tourist'....still feel like I'm cheating at the moment tho