Throttles and the other EU nations

[flecc]

Just to complicate matters a bit more... I seem to recall some provision in the EU law which DOES allow the throttle to be used independent of pedalling, but ONLY to 6km/h? if the user is PUSHING the bike, not riding it?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So technically, you could argue (in court/law) that a bike which has a throttle fitted which is designed to work independent of pedalling is NOT illegal in itself? If the user obeys the law and only uses it as above.. heh. What you do on the road out of sight of the local law enforcement, is another matter.

See this other post of mine.

The walk-alongside law is specific and clear, it in no way applies to other circumstances and is based on the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle Regulations in both Europe and Britain. The maximum speeds are stated in those laws, 6 kph EU and 4 mph Britain.

 

[Old_Dave]

Switch / button / hand throttle / electronic throttle (cruise) are all tarred with the same brush .. they aint controlled by the pedals.

 

[morphix]

See this other post of mine.

The walk-alongside law is specific and clear, it in no way applies to other circumstances and is based on the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle Regulations in both Europe and Britain. The maximum speeds are stated in those laws, 6 kph EU and 4 mph Britain.

But do you think the legal defence would hold though, or does the law stipulate clearly that the throttle must max out at that 4 mph speed limit if used independent of pedalling? I guess that would be very easy for the police to determine if a bike is illegal or not, if it does. Just lift the motor wheel of ground and open throttle basically.

 

[Ptarmigan]

Wow! Gosh!! Dear me !!!
All I asked was "how complicated would it be"
like : 2 wires and a set screw or would we need to employ a graduate mechanical (and or electrical) engineer
LOL
Carry on lads , , ,

 

[jackhandy]

I could be wrong - I am on very rare occasions But I think, if there's a throttle (of any kind) on your handlebars, it would be assumed by the magistrate that you use it.

Hopefully, when I sort out the new GNG mid-drive-equipped bike, the Speedict tucked away in the sealed controller connections' plastic box will enable me to set everything back to legal parameters before Nick-Nick has the nonce to wonder what I'm doing with my mobile phone

I trust none of them lurk here or on E/S!

 

[morphix]

Not that I'm suggesting anyone break the law or get in trouble here..but it would seem to me the best way to defeat these laws would be to use the speedict method of controlling your bike.. that basically gives you complete control over your motor..cruise, throttle-type speed and even the ability to override the limitations on PAS (I think).. but of course, your average police officer is not going to have a clue how that works. You can just lift your handset off the bike or switch it off..and its all gone ;-) it's just a legal road bike again.

 

[morphix]

I could be wrong - I am on very rare occasions But I think, if there's a throttle (of any kind) on your handlebars, it would be assumed by the magistrate that you use it.

Hopefully, when I sort the new GNG mid-drive-equipped bike out, the Speedict tucked away in the sealed controller connections' plastic box will enable me to set everything back to legal parameters before Nick-Nick has the nonce to wonder what I'm doing with my mobile phone

I trust none of them lurk here or on E/S!

You beat me to it! Exactly what I was thinking. Instead of a throttle, have a stop/start button and a "sliding throttle" or virtual throttle on your speedict screen on handset..so you adjust the speed with a finger and your button keeps your motor turning at that speed.


I think the laws are behind technology (as usual) they're going to have to update..and no doubt technology will move again ahead of them.. maybe we'll have watches soon which control the bike? ;-)

 

[Old_Dave]

Pedestrian Controlled

I dont think you can be a pedestrian and riding a bike at the same time

 

[Ptarmigan]

I dont think you can be a pedestrian and riding a bike at the same time

Dandy-horse aka hobby-horse ? !!
Dandy horse

 

[flecc]

Jesus wept I need to have a lie down, don't know if i am coming or going

There seems to be much confusion, so here's a clarification of our legal position:

There is only one e-bike usage law in the UK, the 1983 EAPC regulation, 200 watts and 15 mph assist limit, throttles permitted, no power phase down approaching the 15 mph assist necessary. The 1988 Road Traffic Act adds a 14 years lower age limit. Everything and anything else is illegal on the UK's roads.

Confusion arises because in 2003 the UK adopted the EU's motor vehicle type approval regulation, 2002/EC/24. That exempted EU law specified pedelecs from type approval. Since the EU allows 250 watts, suppliers perceiving that as leeway felt able to supply bike incorporating some EU law aspects.

However, that motor vehicle type approval regulation is not an approval for using EU law e-bikes, it's only motor vehicle law. The law enabling the use of e-bikes according to EU law is yet to be passed, but since there are so many 250 watt bikes already in existence in the UK, an unofficial blind eye is being turned meanwhile. Pick-a-mix is and always will be illegal though, we can't just select bits from each law to make up a personal law as so many have done.

 

[morphix]

See this other post of mine.

The walk-alongside law is specific and clear, it in no way applies to other circumstances and is based on the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle Regulations in both Europe and Britain. The maximum speeds are stated in those laws, 6 kph EU and 4 mph Britain.

Flecc you're knowledgeable about the law and this whole area seems to be a bit grey about throttle legality so can you just clear this up...

We had (or still have) a situation where UK and EU law are in conflict over throttles and the ability to use them at speeds over 6mph without pedalling.. My understanding from past comments and comments repeated again here is that a bike with a throttle and 200W motor that operates up to 15.5mph (even without pedalling) is presently road legal in UK.

Can you clarify then:

1) If you know whether the UK intends to change that and fully implement the EU approach on e-bikes, so that throttles become illegal except in the 6mph (walk-alongside only) provision?

2) Assuming the UK law does change to the EU approach, would it then apply retrospectively to all old bikes that were purchased (or built) or before the law changed, making them all illegal?

3) If the law does not change and the UK keeps that 200W 15.5mph throttle law, there's been some suggestion that the law seems to be a bit flexible or accommodating towards 250W motors (because of the EU law), and so...

In summary, providing the UK keeps that old law for 200W motors (even if you have a 250W motor) UK throttle-only riders shouldn't have any fear they're breaking the law? Correct?

 

[flecc]

But do you think the legal defence would hold though, or does the law stipulate clearly that the throttle must max out at that 4 mph speed limit if used independent of pedalling? I guess that would be very easy for the police to determine if a bike is illegal or not, if it does. Just lift the motor wheel of ground and open throttle basically.

The law is specific as I've said, throttle maximum speed at 6 kph or 4 mph. There is no defence for breaching those.

 

[morphix]

The law is specific as I've said, throttle maximum speed at 6 kph or 4 mph. There is no defence for breaching those.

But can you clarify the situation with regards to the old UK law.. which takes precedent? If your motor is 200W UK law? If it's 250W, EU law? Or has the UK law being completed superseded by the EU legislation now?

 

[flecc]

Can you clarify then

See my clarification post number 30 above, there is no grey area, just misunderstanding of the law.

We will be adopting the EU's law, but just may add a permission for independent throttles.

The EU law is 250 watts maximum assist, pedal controlled only with the power phasing down as it approaches 25 kph. No throttles permitted except for those conforming to the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle regulations, maximum operation at 6 kph.

 

[morphix]

See my clarification post number 30 above, there is no grey area, just misunderstanding of the law.

We will be adopting the EU's law, but just may add a permission for independent throttles.

The EU law is 250 watts maximum assist, pedal controlled only with the power phasing down as it approaches 25 kph. No throttles permitted except for those conforming to the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle regulations, maximum operation at 6 kph.

Do you know if the permission for power independent throttles is likely? Should we be lobbying now hard for that via our MP's?

I wonder if the EU Commission will have to approve such a move and it may even oppose such an independent move by UK?

My understanding of EU law is that they don't like any different changes to EU "directives" they're trying to create one-level playing field.

 

[GaRRy]

I trust none of them lurk here or on E/S!

Actually dont be suprised if some of the powers that be do read what on here. Ceratinly had experience of it in past on other forums where councils etc have quoted what is said on forums when trying to organise events get permission for activities.

 

[flecc]

But can you clarify the situation with regards to the old UK law.. which takes precedent? If your motor is 200W UK law? If it's 250W, EU law? Or has the UK law being completed superseded by the EU legislation now?

At present the UK law permits throttles to 15 mph. Forget the EU law at present, it doesn't apply in the UK so there can be no precedence. We only have UK law. If we adopt EU pedelec law, the UK's EAPC regulations will be entirely scrapped.

 

[morphix]

Actually dont be suprised if some of the powers that be do read what on here. Ceratinly had experience of it in past on other forums where councils etc have quoted what is said on forums when trying to organise events get permission for activities.

Yeah I would not be surprised if they use it as a source of info, at least when they're carrying out their "public consultations" and setting up research bodies to determine future law changes etc.

 

[morphix]

At present the UK law permits throttles to 15 mph. Forget the EU law at present, it doesn't apply in the UK so there can be no precedence. We only have UK law. If we adopt EU pedelec law, the UK's EAPC regulations will be entirely scrapped.

Ok thanks for clarifying.. this is quite a pivotal moment in time then for us owners and the industry as a whole in UK. I really think we should be lobbying HARD to keep these freedoms we enjoy at present before they're taken away from us without such much as a bye or leave? We might make no difference once the EU/UK powers that be decide, but at least we can give it our best shot!

Surely there's a strong common sense legal argument for the UK having that provision for throttles? I mean, if we don't, thousands of people are going to become criminals, that are at present doing nothing wrong in UK law? And look at the cost to the e-bike industry, many have designed/invested heavily in building and advertising e-bikes with throttles.. for some people (disabled etc) it's a key reason they buy e-bikes..and this could hurt the UK's industry and e-bike sales...

Also the common sense approach, the UK law has worked well.. we don't have a problem with independent throttles and statistically there's no evidence we need to remove them, they don't cause accidents etc.

 

[flecc]

Do you know if the permission for power independent throttles is likely? Should we be lobbying now hard for that via our MP's?

That's already been done some while ago. The DfT asked for representations from interested parties and many of us made submissions. BEBA has also made representations through their lobbyist in the Houses of Parliament.

If the DfT wishes to permit throttles with the new EU law, in the UK they will be able to do so. The EU isn't the ogre that it's often represented to be, but we will not have the right to cross borders with our throttle bikes then. That is the whole point of transport harmonisation, free movement across Europe, and we will just be impeding that.

I personally don't accept that throttles are vital when 26 other member countries don't feel the need. It's just Britain being perverse again as we so often are with EU issues.