THE NEW PERFORMANCE CX RACE, FOR EBIKE RACING

[soundwave]

The new Performance CX Race, for ebike racing - EMTB Forums

The new Bosch Performance CX Race is a limited edition motor. Only a few consumer ebike models will get it. The motor is developed for the ebike racers. It’s been that way for long in other bike sports, or even for cars. A lot of the development happens in the racing teams. The the upgrades...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[AndyBike]

This is the mid drive haters society in here.

 

[soundwave]

i did not think it would even get 1 reply lol

 

[Bonzo Banana]

I don't know anyone that hates mid-drive I'm certainly a fan for the right application. The issue for me with Bosch is the proprietary nature of their products and throw away bikes when the bikes are uneconomic to repair. I wouldn't apply the same criticisms to many kit mid-drive motors. Mid-drive motors can be a fantastic choice and definitely the right choice for an off-road e-mountain bike.

I did notice this;

'The Performance CX Race is still a legal motor with 250W nominal power and the 25km/h cut-off speed. But Bosch have maximized the time we get full motor power. '

The nominal power bit again seems suspect to say the least. If you are delivering full power for longer and drawing very high current from the battery how does this not effect the legal rating of 250W?

I believe the 250W nominal rating is farcical legislation but how come premium ebikes get away with it but a cheap Chinese ebike gets hammered when it takes far less out of its battery, in fact typically cheaper lower spec cells not capable of such high current and overall a much lower Watt hour battery pack too.

Bosch is a pretty despicable company, they were a major player in the diesel gate scandal, put a spy in Dyson to try and learn secrets and have often paid huge fines for anti-competitive practices this could be an upcoming ebike scandal when someone actually takes time to look at their so called nominal rating.

As hub motors especially direct drive have more surface area to dissipate heat they heat up slower so if a 250W mid-drive motor allows for 800W then hub motors should be allowed a higher wattage rating again because they can take higher wattage for longer over their nominal rating.

To me this reads as Bosch have got away with their higher wattage ebike motors before so are pushing the envelope even more to what they can get away with to give themselves an even greater competitive advantage over their competitors. Yet Bosch have a long history of being a very dishonest company that ignores legislation more so than many of its competitors.

 

[Benjahmin]

Here we go down the rabbit hole of definitions.
As I understand it the 250w rating of motors is what that motor can take continuously without overheating.
So, a motor that can run at 800w that doesn't hot complies with this 250w rating. Then, if stamped by the manufacturer as 250w, it is legal.
This is what makes the nominal power definition bonkers - as far as i can see, it's meaningless.

It is power that does the work. Would a more precise way be to limit the power output of contollers? Not current as a 10A controller at 36v outputs less power than a 10A at 48v.
However, if controllers were limited to an output of 250w, given inefficiencies in the system, I certainly would no longer be cycling the hills of west Wales.

I do agree about Bosch though. I wouldn't go near their locked in products.

 

[matthewslack]

In practice, if 25km/h is securely implemented, power beyond 250W has limited use. Brilliantly useful for hill climbing, very beneficial for accelerating cargo bikes from rest, and in all cases gets you to maximum speed that bit quicker.

Designing to cope with peaks somewhat above 250W should result in better reliability as most of the time the motor and controller are operating well below the limits of destruction.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Here we go down the rabbit hole of definitions.
As I understand it the 250w rating of motors is what that motor can take continuously without overheating.
So, a motor that can run at 800w that doesn't hot complies with this 250w rating. Then, if stamped by the manufacturer as 250w, it is legal.
This is what makes the nominal power definition bonkers - as far as i can see, it's meaningless.

It is power that does the work. Would a more precise way be to limit the power output of contollers? Not current as a 10A controller at 36v outputs less power than a 10A at 48v.
However, if controllers were limited to an output of 250w, given inefficiencies in the system, I certainly would no longer be cycling the hills of west Wales.

I do agree about Bosch though. I wouldn't go near their locked in products.

If a vacuum cleaner has a nominal rating of 1500W you don't expect to see it pull 5000W for extended periods. Looking at most geared hub ebikes if they have a 7A controller (36Vx7A=250W) they have a maximum current rating of 12-14A about twice they aren't drawing 22A from the battery for extended periods.

Lets say Bosch were bought to task and their ebike motors had to be restricted to 500W peak, maybe 600W for very short spikes of current that is going to be a significant drop in torque performance so again leaving people with a product inferior to how originally sold same as dieselgate where 17 million Bosch devices were designed to function illegally with regard vehicle fuel mixtures and changing parameters when the device knew it was being tested. Operating illegally to give themselves a competitive advantage.

 

[guerney]

From what I've read Bosch 250W controllers are 20A (or @soundwave 's is), therefore I wonder if Bosch are using some sort of buffer to increase and sustain higher power for longer periods of time? Some electric and hybrid supercars boost performance for short bursts using supercapacitors. Otherwise the power of Bosch ebike motors stated on this thread make no sense.

Electric Motor Calculator

Calculate amps, hp and kVA for electrical motors.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

 

[Sturmey]

Power (Watts) = Torque (N.m) x Speed (RPM) / 9.5488

If you read, for example EN15194, its the mechanical output power that measured under certain conditions. (Its rather complicated).

 

[soundwave]

there is a sclass bosch gen 4 with a 28mph cut off speed that is also gen4 with the same controller just with different software settings for higher top speed both motors are the same bar this.

and its the same with the race motor but limited to 15mph and you get a extra 60% assistance up to 400% done via the software and 150g lighter limited numbers and no parts available so out of warranty it would be a bin job and if you race bikes in events most manufactures will void the warranty anyway.

race class means it can hit over 28mph which this so called new bosch motor is not it is just marketing bs and if they opened up the software like bafang you could set it to 800% assistance or just rip out the controller and use a 3rd party one and dump 40A in to it.

my bike would be classed as race as with a dongle i can hit near 40 mph at max rpm but some ppl just dont like this fact and it will do no damage to my motor either as the last one lasted 8 years and did not die.

 

[guerney]

there is a sclass bosch gen 4 with a 28mph cut off speed that is also gen4 with the same controller just with different software settings for higher top speed both motors are the same bar this.

and its the same with the race motor but limited to 15mph and you get a extra 60% assistance up to 400% done via the software and 150g lighter limited numbers and no parts available so out of warranty it would be a bin job and if you race bikes in events most manufactures will void the warranty anyway.

race class means it can hit over 28mph which this so called new bosch motor is not it is just marketing bs and if they opened up the software like bafang you could set it to 800% assistance or just rip out the controller and use a 3rd party one and dump 40A in to it.

my bike would be classed as race as with a dongle i can hit near 40 mph at max rpm but some ppl just dont like this fact and it will do no damage to my motor either as the last one lasted 8 years and did not die.

I've just ordered these sheepskin earpads for my Sennheiser HD600 headphones - I bet they'll only last about a year, as usual

Replacement Earpads for Sennheiser HD650, HD600, HD580, HD565, HD545 Headphones Sheepskin Leather Memory Foam Ear Pad Cushions: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

Free delivery and returns on eligible orders. Buy Replacement Earpads for Sennheiser HD650, HD600, HD580, HD565, HD545 Headphones Sheepskin Leather Memory Foam Ear Pad Cushions at Amazon UK.

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[soundwave]

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[guerney]

Earpads Foam Pad Headband For Sennheiser HD545 HD580 HD600 HD650 Headphone | eBay

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Got those, they feel icky, which is why I went with sheepskin this time - Sennheiser's original velour pads feel brilliant, and that's usually what I buy... but trying to find genuine spare parts has become a freaking nightmare now that Sennheiser have sold product licensing to that German hearing aid company. No driver capsules on sale anywhere now, and complete headband units are impossible to source in the UK. I'll go with Beyer Dynamic and Sony next time. Trouble is, these HD600 still sound better than anything else I've tried. Bloody annoying.

 

[soundwave]

some places in Germany want you to order 200 euros worth of stuff even to post it to the uk and others charge so much it is just not worth bothering anymore.

i need a new head band as paint has chipped off like they all do but im not paying crazy postage prices to get one.

like everything these days they expect you to throw it in the bin and buy new no matter what it cost out of warranty.

 

[guerney]

My carbon headband splintered after it fell off the desk too many times, and is now being held together at the top with zipties, until I get around to repairing it with epoxy. One of the reasons I bought them in the first place - aside from the very neutral mostly flat frequency response, was because at the time every part was replaceable... now that feature is gone, I may actually have to buy something else (which won't be as good) when these drivers get fuggy.

 

[soundwave]

bosch are doing the same thing as going forward with the smart system the new frame batts wont work with the older motors and locked out via software..

so when they stop making the older batts that's it i got a new one this year but when thats dead no bike.

https://www.audiosanctuary.co.uk/sennheiser-replacement-foam-headband-pad-for-hd650.html

 

[guerney]

I certainly hope right to repair laws will be passed by the time you need a new battery... if that dimwit Truss doesn't block them for being anti-business.

 

[soundwave]

dont worry that is getting sorted cant say much but buy then i will be able to get it recelled in the uk so can keep this thing going forever

3rd party batts are out there but made in germany and no postage.

 

[guerney]

If not, you could go on a German holiday and bring one back in hand luggage.

 

[soundwave]

if it comes to that i wont have any other option but a company in Germany can recell them for about 500 euro but again no postage.