Swytch juddering

[Alex76]

First apologies for not replying to previous thread but when I was on this forum many years ago one always got notified of replies this time it hasn't happened.

Anyway sorted out the first problem which was due to magnet and sensor on pedals.

Now I have a new problem that the front wheel motor has started to judder / vibrate. It was preceded by loss of electrical assistance even though all the red lights were glowing.

I've been on the switch AI generated replies and gone through all the suggestions but with no luck.

 

[saneagle]

If the motor makes a graunching/screeching noise, like gears grinding, it's a problem with the timing of the commutation pulses. That normally happens because of a problem in the motor cable, like the main connector not pushed in all the way to the marked line. It can also happen when the cable is damaged where it comes out of the axle or anywhere else. Another big cause is when you get water in the motor that shorts a hall sensor, especially if your cable exits upwards instead of downwards.

If you give your motor full power when it's like that, you can blow the MOSFETs in the controller, so be careful.

If that's not it, you need to give a better description of what you're experiencing.


Special to swytch is the stupid multi-pin connector on the early kits. That's probably where a signal from the hall wire is lost if that's what you have, but you guys never tell us what you have, so we have to guess.

 

[Alex76]

Thanks for replying.
I have been informed by Swytch that my kit is "ECO / PRO generation (GEN 2)" after many emails they conclude it is the battery at fault which seems possible as I've now discovered the previous owner hadn't used the bike for at least a year. You can't buy a replacement battery for this model you have to upgrade. My concern is supposing it isn't the battery?

 

[saneagle]

Thanks for replying.
I have been informed by Swytch that my kit is "ECO / PRO generation (GEN 2)" after many emails they conclude it is the battery at fault which seems possible as I've now discovered the previous owner hadn't used the bike for at least a year. You can't buy a replacement battery for this model you have to upgrade. My concern is supposing it isn't the battery?

They're probably wrong about the battery causing your problem unless you've wrongly described it. Whether you battery is knackered or not is another issue.

 

[Bikes4two]

I'm no expert but folks who in general that have battery problems don't experience symptoms like yours but others wiser than me will be along shortly.

Oops, crossed in the post with Saneagle!

 

[Nealh]

Batteries cause power failure / cutting out when old or worn out , resulting issue caused by voltage sag or use in higher pas modes.
Juddering or eletrical contact /commutation noises as said are electrical and not battery related.

 

[Alex76]

Batteries cause power failure / cutting out when old or worn out , resulting issue caused by voltage sag or use in higher pas modes.
Juddering or eletrical contact /commutation noises as said are electrical and not battery related.

Thanks for reply. Have you any suggestions as to what I can do to try and solve the problem?

 

[Alex76]

I'm no expert but folks who in general that have battery problems don't experience symptoms like yours but others wiser than me will be along shortly.

Oops, crossed in the post with Saneagle!

Thanks for replying

 

[Alex76]

They're probably wrong about the battery causing your problem unless you've wrongly described it. Whether you battery is knackered or not is another issue.

Thanks for replying. I cannot think of any other way to describe the problem

 

[Alex76]

If the motor makes a graunching/screeching noise, like gears grinding, it's a problem with the timing of the commutation pulses. That normally happens because of a problem in the motor cable, like the main connector not pushed in all the way to the marked line. It can also happen when the cable is damaged where it comes out of the axle or anywhere else. Another big cause is when you get water in the motor that shorts a hall sensor, especially if your cable exits upwards instead of downwards.

If you give your motor full power when it's like that, you can blow the MOSFETs in the controller, so be careful.

If that's not it, you need to give a better description of what you're experiencing.


Special to swytch is the stupid multi-pin connector on the early kits. That's probably where a signal from the hall wire is lost if that's what you have, but you guys never tell us what you have, so we have to guess.

Swytch state from information I gave .... It seems like you might have our ECO / PRO generation (GEN 2)

 

[matthewslack]

If you search the forum for Swytch related threads, there is (a) a lot of detail already found and described and (b) the knowledge that any generic 36V battery will work, you just have to work out how to connect it.

Your worst case outcome is a messier install with a different battery but a working bike. The bike can be made to work. You need to decide how much trouble shooting you want to do, and when/whether to give up on most of the Swytch stuff and install KT.

I would be getting quite aggressive with the contacts in the big connector, or bypassing them to see if that solves it.

 

[Nealh]

Juddering motor or stuttering is a wiring issue of some sort , so one will need to check all wireing and connectors.
1. Hub motor connector , check it is fully pushed together to the raised embossed line.
2. Check motor cable where it exits the hub , has the outer sheath been worn thru or look damaged.
3. Controller connections, usually modern hubs have (3+6) 3 thicker phase wires and 6 thinner Hall wires . Some may have (3+5) 5 Hall wires ( omitting a speed sensor) and older motors may only have (3+3) 3 Hall wires for just a speed semsor.
4. A pair of phase or Hall wires toucning will cause a bad commutation/ a short and cause juddering or alternately a broken phase /hall intermittently contacting will give a bad connection.
5. An incorrect setting could cause such an issue ( dependent on the system used).

 

[Bikes4two]

PS - Crossed posting with NealH - sorry

@Alex76 - so how handy are you with tools?

You're between a rock and a hard place in that without doing some investigation of your own, you can't be sure that just following Swytch's advice will solve the problem in that it might be that the motor is faulty and not only that, the motor might have caused the controller to fail (the electronics in the Gen 2 battery pack).

Basics first though as Saneagle suggests:
> check that the motor cable is correctly pushing in all the way (and if you've had it unplugged before, make sure non of the pins are bent
> Is the cable is damaged where it comes out of the axle or anywhere else.
> see if there's any indication of water ingress into the where the previous owner had the cable exit pointing upwards instead of downwards.

The battery may also be kaput or at least weakened if it was left unattended for a year (this happened to a friend's Gen 3 battery - it died completely) but from what you say about 'all red lights glowing' you may have got away with it (as did the same friend whose wife's Gen 3 battery had also been left unattended but still works).

I'm wondering if the controller inside the battery pack is the problem and Swytch in an attempt to keep it simple for the customer have deliberately left out the term 'controller' and just said a new battery is needed (which of course contains the controller) - just a thought.

If you're handy with tools and it were me, I'd not invest any more money with Swytch. The first thing I'd do is establish if the motor is OK (lots of YT vids and posts on here on how to check out the 3 motor windings and the 3 hall sensors).

If the motor is OK then by buying a widely available KT Controller and a standard 36v battery, you can put something together that will be inherantly better than the original Swytch kit and certainly more cost effective if future repairs are needed.

All that's a big ask if no particular DIY skills of course.

 

[Nealh]

There's not much to go wrong with in the controller unless a wire has come loose and is shorting ( highly unlikely).
A mosfet will simply not allow the bike to work .
The most likely scenario is a poor wire issue or connection .
Internal motor wire issue is unlikely though as B4T has said water /moisture ingress could be an issue if motor wire exits northwards.

 

[saneagle]

9 times out of ten, with your crappy Swytch system, problems like what you describe come from that stupid multi-pin connector. Check that the spring blades each side of each slot are still giving enough tension and that none are burnt. Other motor connection problems would also give the symptoms you badly describe, but first you have to remove the elephant in the room.

 

[Alex76]

Thanks for the replies. (Are notifications of replies no longer used? )Further developments. I went through the settings on the swytch battery and discovered that it had been set on the wrong wheel size which I corrected. Went out for test ride lights showing but no assistance. Kept trying the off on and eventually it cut in but making a difference noise than before more a repetitive knocking. In trying to unsuccessfully to turn assistance off while cycling the noise suddenly changed to a loud hum and the assistance improved. Tried turning off and then on again but the same repetition as above with the knocking eventually changing to a loud hum. I am quite good with building tools but electronic repairs I have always found a difficult.

 

[Alex76]

I've checked out YT "3 motor windings and the 3 hall sensors" one of them began by saying "only attempt this if you have a basic understanding of how an electric motor works" which unfortunately I don't.

Where the cable enters the hub the wire is facing up, rather than down, there is a lot of surplus wire tucked underneath the battery. From what I think I've learnt on this thread the wire leaving the motor should first go down before returning up as electricians do with exterior wiring.

Swytch want $399 + shipping costs for replacement wheel and motor. That sounds like price gouging to me?

 

[saneagle]

I've checked out YT "3 motor windings and the 3 hall sensors" one of them began by saying "only attempt this if you have a basic understanding of how an electric motor works" which unfortunately I don't.

Where the cable enters the hub the wire is facing up, rather than down, there is a lot of surplus wire tucked underneath the battery. From what I think I've learnt on this thread the wire leaving the motor should first go down before returning up as electricians do with exterior wiring.

Swytch want $399 + shipping costs for replacement wheel and motor. That sounds like price gouging to me?

You don't need a new motor. Just look at that main multi-pin connector between the bag and the frame.

 

[pedalfettal]

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Don't know if it works reliably...or intermittently...or at all.

 

[thelarkbox]

I've checked out YT "3 motor windings and the 3 hall sensors" one of them began by saying "only attempt this if you have a basic understanding of how an electric motor works" which unfortunately I don't.

Where the cable enters the hub the wire is facing up, rather than down, there is a lot of surplus wire tucked underneath the battery. From what I think I've learnt on this thread the wire leaving the motor should first go down before returning up as electricians do with exterior wiring.

Swytch want $399 + shipping costs for replacement wheel and motor. That sounds like price gouging to me?

Yikes while hub motors are afaik pretty bullet proof only cooking the occasional hall sensor when over burdened. - an upside down mounting letting water in to the motor over a long period can be trouble..

Just to clarify, the up and down on a hub motor is designated by the cable notch in the hollow axle from which the motor cable exits, this notch should face downward, as if mounted facing upward can encourage water to seep in with gravity and capillary action?

Cant comment with any authority on your problems Saneagle is the right chap to have on the case imho, but for circa £399+ you can buy a complete yose power kit inc battery like i installed almost 2 years ago which has been trouble free beyond an initial pas issue (quickly resolved) and a niggling issue with the rivnut placement i used to fix the battery ( battery sits 2-3 degrees off centre- no one but me can see it but it bugs me..).

Yose are also 'generous' with the cable lengths, probably a general feature of kits to fit many bikes so a stashed bundle of cables is par for the 'kit' course..