Sustain Edison/Synergie Vivace Folder

[homemoz]

This is my first posting to this forum, so here goes.
I have been looking at folders & gather that the Sustain Edison & Synergie Vivace folding bikes will be available again from the end of October. Has anyone got longer term experience of using these bikes? Due to limited storage I really need a folder and these seem very reasonably priced. I am particularly interested in build quality and reliability. My intention is to use the bike to commute to work (round trip of around 18 miles with some longish gradients), so it would be also useful to know what hill climbing is like and what sort of distance I can expect from the battery pack.

I've looked at other folder like the Quando, which is ruled out due to the single gear and weight. The Nano Brompton is tempting, but more than my budget will allow. The only other one I've seen is the folder by Sunrunner Bikes, which I've tried and is a nicely made little bike but may not be quite powerful enough for the commute - although I haven't ruled it out.

Any advice would be very welcome.

 

[flecc]

Much depends on whether you can charge at both ends, since 18 miles will be very marginal for many folders, and as the battery ages and loses capacity, not possible for most. Even at the end of the first year, almost all those using Lithium batteries couldn't do it.

Although you seem to have ruled out the Quando, it's miles ahead of almost anything for hill climb power and the single near 70" gear is only insufficient on 1 in 5 (20%) or steeper, hills like this quite rare. Up to 1 in 6 it leaves most bikes for dead, but it's range is only around 15 miles and the gear is too low to pedal it at 16 or more mph.

From observation of the Synergie/Sustain folder being ridden on flat roads, they seemed to have sufficient power for them to handle most hills with some assistance, but I wouldn't be confident of them having an 18 mile range, and can virtually guarantee they wouldn't have within a few months due to ageing of their very small battery. So once again, a need to charge at both ends sooner or later.
.

 

[homemoz]

Edison/Synergy Vivace Folder

Flecc,
Thanks for replying to my post. I would consider keeping a separate battery at work and swap them for the journey home. I would really like to know how the Edison/Vivace stand up to repeated use and what they are like to ride. I have heard very mixed reports about the quality of electric bikes costing considerably more than than the ones I am thinking of buying which has made me quite wary without a longer term view.

I appreciate your comments about the Quando and Lithium batteries. I am maybe looking for the impossible, but really the criteria are relatively lightweight (20 kgs or less), reliable, reasonable hill climbing and a range of gears to give more of the characteristics of an "ordinary" bike.

If there is anyone on the forum, who uses one of the Edison/Vivace bikes regularly - it would be good to have your views.

 

[flecc]

I don't know of any member buying one homeoz. One member bought a Sustain Halley on the spot at the New Milton show and took it home to Wales, where he uses it for a daily commute. He was delighted with it in his initial reports after a couple of trips, saying it easily handled the hills, but there's no report since.

The folder appears to use the same motor, and in any case, hub motors in general are very reliable and tend to outlive the cheaper bikes. So the real question marks are on the bike and battery. The bike uses proprietary parts from Shimano's cheaper range, in common with many other e-bikes of all prices, so it is easily repaired by any cycle dealer. Chinese tyres in general don't impress, but of course are easily changed for better ones, usually getting lower rolling resistance and better performance as a result.

That leaves the battery, and in general Lithium-Ion batteries don't seem to be very long lived in our relatively short experience. You can probably expect about 33% loss of capacity and range in each year, that's what the first ones are giving, and you may get two or three years life, but they haven't been around long enough for anyone to know. As you are thinking of two batteries, it will be easier for you to deal with loss of range with time of course.

Sustain insist they are serious and responsible agents and have rapidly sold out of the folder after it's introduction, so failing any answers from owners, why not ask them for contact details for a couple of those owners so you can ask them how they've performed. If they are confident of their product, they should be willing to ask some owners for permission for you to contact.

Here's the contact page.
.

 

[homemoz]

Edison/Vivace Folder

Thanks Flecc - I have submitted a message on the Synergie users forum, so will see if there is a response from that. Otherwise the idea of contacting Sustain is a good one. I thought that with Sustain and Synergie selling out so quickly, there must be a sizable user base out there.

 

[keithhazel]

hi there, i am suprised that flec has not mentioned to you about the advice he has been giving me as i have been posting about my synergie/edison problems....i have had it 3 months and have done about 220-240 miles, in the beginning the battery life would enable me to travel about 9 miles purely on battery power, full speed being 14mph..however any wind against or gradient would slow it to about 10mph, then pedal assist i would use as it was marginaly faster doing it that way, however the gear ratio is not good enough and the best you can pedal at is about 11 mph with looking like a clown,however i have this week been having power problem with battery and think i am well down on original figures, i am today actually going out to see what the range is with just a pure power ride, read later for figures,up gradients with power assist its good, no actual climbing power but slowly assisting climbing, same when igainst a wind, assisting without pushing power, but no effort on the legs, but no speed either..on the flat and without wind it is as fast as my 36 volt powabyke apart from actually pulling away power, it is very comfy with great suspension, very fast to fold, very reasonable to lift and a very clever bar under the main pedal cog to protect it when you fold up and rest on the ground,the schwinn folder when it comes out at approximatly £999 doesnt have that kind of protection....this would be the perfect bike if they supplied it with a 36 volt battery and better gearing as 6 speed is virtually useless...more to come after my test ride.

 

[flecc]

hi there, i am suprised that flec has not mentioned to you about the advice he has been giving me as i have been posting about my synergie/edison problems....

My above postings were before I knew of your experiences Keith, hence my not mentioning those. Many don't share your feelings about some of the issues, so not all are relevant to everyone. For example, I disagree on gears, six speeds is plenty on an electric bike and it's gear range rather than the number of gears that's important On small wheel bikes high gears are very difficult to provide, so more gears just means more lower gears which aren't needed.

Equally, the voltage is unimportant. A 24 volt bike can be more powerful than a 36 volt one, it's wattage that gives power, not voltage, and a 24 volt bike can have a higher wattage motor than a 36 volt one. Putting a 36 volt battery in a folder makes it heavier like the 36 volt Quando which is already available.

As I've indicated to you, I have a fairly low opinion of most electric folders, so choosing one is usually a matter of making the best of a bad job when someone is insistent on a folder for their needs. I have a lot of respect for the Quando, but it's either too large or too heavy for the requirements of many.
.

 

[keithhazel]

point taken on what you say, i am new to batteries, wattage ect, i just figured having both 24 and 36 volt that there was a huge difference, anyways i was not intending to be mouthy just telling it as i found, if the man looking at a edison/synergie wants to know my finding from my extensive 12 mile ride this afternoon then i am happy to tell him them if he should message me, otherwise i shall not bore anyone with them.
regards keith

 

[flecc]

You're not mouthy at all Keith, post as you wish. All posts are welcome.

You'll appreciate that answering queries is always a difficult balancing act. I try to give opinions and facts on the bikes without letting my own preferences be more important than those of the person asking a question.

With my own personal preferences left out, my answers on a bike can differ from one person to another, since their preferences make the situation different each time. The problem is of course that this leaves me open to question from others wondering why there are differences in the answers.

Of course the differences show in the way that some like bikes that others hate, illustrating that there never is just one right answer, only one right answer for each questioner.

I sometimes think what I do in here is the most difficult job I've ever done, and I've done many tough ones.
.

 

[keithhazel]

thanks for that flec, i would like to post todays findings as wish i had such info when i was looking, and do now that i am looking again,after yesterdays quite worrying battery fade away i fully charged it and today was going no where except fact finding, the first part of my route had a slight gradient and across a field track for half a mile so here i used pedal assist, however i find i have 2 modes of assist, one that seems to work 50/50 with you and the other that as soon as you turn the pedals it gives 100%, if you intend pedal assist on the flat in this mode you have to pedal like the clappers and really cant catch up with the speed so thats a waste of time, on a gradient or into wind will be a different matter, but i did not use this mode as was trying to find full extent of distance i could go...so after first half mile on pedal assist then half mile on just power on normal roads, the rest was done on very smooth roads which "help" this bike, some that have rough tarmac seem to fight against but smooth is good,the roads used had very minor gardients one way and very minor the other, ie--speed up to 16 on down ones and 13 coming back,wind resistance was minor one way and minor in favor coming back, bascically i did a circuit twice round the block so to speak,after initail first half mile as i mentioned it was all power mode full, apart from any standing starts at traffic lights or junctions when pedal assist for 25 yards to get up speed,after 7.4 miles the fist of 5 power indicators flickered, 2 miles later that first of 5 went out total,a feeling of less power i had but on the flat and nearly windless it got up to speed, not real fast like a 36 volter would,a mile further and the second light went out,half mile later the next, and definate feeling of less power but no wind again meant was able to keep up to speed,after 12 miles all but the last of 5 power indication lights went out, knowing there was hardly any left on the battery and its recommended to not fully discharge, which again is not helpful...i turned battery off and peddleled, this is first time i have done the peddling only and the resistance put up was quite worrying and was like towing a bag of cement, so 12 miles power only, being on the flat and no wind and not powered fast up to speed...and peddling on its own definatly not recommeded...so i guess if i was in peddle assist mode all the time i might have got 20 and maybe a few more from it which is fine if i only want to go at 11mph cos cant comfortably pedle any faster...am guessing the performance i got was up to what it would have been advertised at...its great for short journeys with comfort and no wind or gradients..unless you want to peddle assist again at 11mph...i guess i want my cake and eat it, the ability to do 20mph yet be able to pop it in a car boot or in the luggage rack on the train...rather tempting to buy a schwinn and peddle/peddle assist the whole 43 miles as it states it can and if it goes bust take it back, however its not summer any more so im not gonna do that....next summer might be a different game altogether...

 

[flecc]

Yes, that fast pedalling to keep up with the motor is exactly the same on the Quando, Keith. It's powerful motor will drive the bike to 17 mph on a freshly charged battery, dropping to 15 mph after a short while, but the pedals are really spinning at 15 mph and 17 is too much to keep pedalling with.

This is the price of small wheels, they need to turn more times to give a speed, and a small wheel bike can't be geared high enough. Bikes as we know them were originally designed with 28" wheels with good reason, and whenever they are made smaller, these problems arise.

However, you could improve yours so that you could pedal more easily with the higher power mode. It needs a bigger chainring. It looks to me like around about a 40 tooth. If you could do a tooth count on the chainwheel and the smallest rear sprocket and let me know those tooth numbers, I can probably help. Also let me know if the chainring is mounted on a four or five leg "spider" with hexagon bolts or if it's a one piece chainwheel.

To count the teeth. it's easiest if you can put a marker on or next to a tooth and start the count from there. A dib of chalk or a bit of sticky label can work.
.

 

[homemoz]

Very interesting to read the dialogue between Keith & Flecc. When I saw Keith's post last night was also going to suggest the bigger chainring option, which wouldn't be an expensive way of making the Edison more rideable.
I have asked asked Electric Bike Sales about converting a Dahon Vitess D7 with their front wheel conversion kit (in theory - light weight, good gear range, decent bike etc). Just waiting on a quote from them before deciding whether to go ahead.

The alternative still seems to be the Edison/Vivace and get the gears sorted as above. The irony is that I've got a decent Trek F600 stuck in the understairs cupboard - just not sure whether it would take a conversion (and it is quite a weighty bike already with mudgauards, rack etc). Although the Treks have steel forks, they are narrower than the Dahons - 70mm compared to 85mm & I think 70mm the same as a standard Brompton. It seems a lot widen out & I notice that the Bromptoms Nano kit comes with a new set of forks rather than mess witht the originals.

Do either Flecc or Keith have a link to the Scwinn folder? Would be interested to see this but couldn't find anything on the Scwinn website?

 

[rooel]

...., and a small wheel bike can't be geared high enough. Bikes as we know them were originally designed with 28" wheels with good reason, and whenever they are made smaller, these problems arise.
.

I am not sure I entirely agree with this, but being no mathematician will just cite some actual examples:

Dahon Speed TR: gear range 21" to 114"
Dahon Speed p8: gear range 33" to 96"
Dahon Ciao P8: gear range 28" to 86"
Dahon Impulse: gear range 21" to 114"
Dahon Jetstream P8: gear range 32" to 93"
Dahon Roo EL: gear range 33" to 83"

perhaps nothing quite suitable for the sports cyclist who may be able to turn a 124" wheel at 60 to 80 rpm, but very suitable for everyone else, whether or not they use electricity for assistance.

 

[flecc]

I'm aware of those of course Rooel, but those high gears are bought at the expense of tiny fast wearing rear sprockets, the wear rate on sprockets below 12 teeth accelerates rapidly. And that's not the only problem with them of course, the smaller the sprocket, the greater the efficiency loss when pedalling, and the loss can get severe with around 9 teeth. Lastly, chain wear is considerably accelerated by small sprockets.

Large chainwheels are the other ploy on some to get high ratios, and that leaves the chainline sometimes embarrassingly low, though it's a more efficient way of getting high ratios than small rear sprockets.

It's for these widely recognised problems that many designers have tried an intermediate layshaft to step up the ratios between chainwheel and rear sprocket. Ultimately pointless though, since any efficiency gain is cancelled by the losses of the layshaft.

So the small wheel bike remains with it's problems.
.

 

[rooel]

I do agree, flecc, but this seems to be the price physics imposes, if, like me, one wants an electric bike which weighs under 20kgs, and, being only 5'/1500mm in length, fits, unfolded, vertically, with three of its fellows alongside, in the back of the people carrier, still leaving 4 or 5 seats in the front for the riders.

 

[keithhazel]

Yes, that fast pedalling to keep up with the motor is exactly the same on the Quando, Keith. It's powerful motor will drive the bike to 17 mph on a freshly charged battery, dropping to 15 mph after a short while, but the pedals are really spinning at 15 mph and 17 is too much to keep pedalling with.

This is the price of small wheels, they need to turn more times to give a speed, and a small wheel bike can't be geared high enough. Bikes as we know them were originally designed with 28" wheels with good reason, and whenever they are made smaller, these problems arise.

However, you could improve yours so that you could pedal more easily with the higher power mode. It needs a bigger chainring. It looks to me like around about a 40 tooth. If you could do a tooth count on the chainwheel and the smallest rear sprocket and let me know those tooth numbers, I can probably help. Also let me know if the chainring is mounted on a four or five leg "spider" with hexagon bolts or if it's a one piece chainwheel.

To count the teeth. it's easiest if you can put a marker on or next to a tooth and start the count from there. A dib of chalk or a bit of sticky label can work.
.

thanks for that, i will on monday when im home and have the time do a count and let you know,however the shocking drag when useing the bike in non power mode made me think there is somewhere more problems...

 

[keithhazel]

Very interesting to read the dialogue between Keith & Flecc. When I saw Keith's post last night was also going to suggest the bigger chainring option, which wouldn't be an expensive way of making the Edison more rideable.
I have asked asked Electric Bike Sales about converting a Dahon Vitess D7 with their front wheel conversion kit (in theory - light weight, good gear range, decent bike etc). Just waiting on a quote from them before deciding whether to go ahead.

The alternative still seems to be the Edison/Vivace and get the gears sorted as above. The irony is that I've got a decent Trek F600 stuck in the understairs cupboard - just not sure whether it would take a conversion (and it is quite a weighty bike already with mudgauards, rack etc). Although the Treks have steel forks, they are narrower than the Dahons - 70mm compared to 85mm & I think 70mm the same as a standard Brompton. It seems a lot widen out & I notice that the Bromptoms Nano kit comes with a new set of forks rather than mess witht the originals.

Do either Flecc or Keith have a link to the Scwinn folder? Would be interested to see this but couldn't find anything on the Scwinn website?

i didnt find out about the schwinn folder from their website but from the shop in brid that sells the schwinn big bikes, he gave me a cataloge..2007 one with it in, although they have not yet had one delivered yet, any day now possibly...i think it looks pretty good but the first major problem or fault is when folded it has no bracket under the main cog, the one with the peddles on to rest on when its folded and left on the ground,my synergie has a angle metal bracket which is what takes the weight when folded up and rested on floor, i fear if all weight is on the cog wheel damage will easily happen,when i get home on monday maybe sunday i will take a photo from catalogue and try and put it on here, not sure how. and if i cant i will send you it in an e-mail..

 

[flecc]

I do agree, flecc, but this seems to be the price physics imposes, if, like me, one wants an electric bike which weighs under 20kgs, and, being only 5'/1500mm in length, fits, unfolded, vertically, with three of its fellows alongside, in the back of the people carrier, still leaving 4 or 5 seats in the front for the riders.

Exactly my point, so naturally we're in agreement there, and of course my main bike that does virtually all my work is a folder, albeit a full length frame one, so I'm not biased against them. I just recognise the shortcomings, which get worse as the dimensions of any parts decrease.

Of course with four full size bikes you wouldn't need the people carrier, you could ride to your destination.
.

 

[keithhazel]

Exactly my point, so naturally we're in agreement there, and of course my main bike that does virtually all my work is a folder, albeit a full length frame one, so I'm not biased against them. I just recognise the shortcomings, which get worse as the dimensions of any parts decrease.

Of course with four full size bikes you wouldn't need the people carrier, you could ride to your destination.
.

i was looking the other day and came accross one i think called "the paratrooper" or something similar, i did see one go on e-bay a while back for a right bundle of casy, the paratrooper, if thats what its called claims 60miles on a charge ect....what do we know please, cos its a folder too,

 

[rooel]

Of course with four full size bikes you wouldn't need the people carrier, you could ride to your destination.
.

We might indeed if there was a segregated cycle track all the way. However with the aid of the Edinburgh Spokes map we have managed to find a couple of routes from the house to distant parts of the city with segregation on at least part of the way.

The Edinburgh cycle routes are very disjointed, badly designed in many places, and poorly maintained. The late Labour city council often boasted that they had made the best provision for cyclists in the whole of Scotland, which just shows how much worse provision is elsewhere. I took care not to vote for them at the last election but the replacement SNP/Liberal Democrat regime does not look like being much better. Plenty of "mouth" of course but very little on the ground.