Speed or S Pedelec insurance

Hi all,

 

I wonder if anyone can help me?

 

We are considering bringing S pedelecs into the UK, specifically the 45kph Grace MX S class for off road trail use only.

 

We seem however to be hitting a brick wall whilst trying to obtain third party and product liability insurance on speed pedelecs.

 

Does anyone know if any of the S class bikes currently for sale in the UK have third party or product liability insurance, and if so would you be so kind as to point me in the right direction?

 

Many thanks!

 

All the best

 

David

Dont have a clue but I assume you mean business insurance for you rather than the purchaser ?.

 

One reason I can think hard to get is your saying of for "off road use" only. Where would that be exactly as its a requirement in the UK any vehicle and it rider/driver to fully comply UK road regulations and licensing anywhere that public have access to even if "off road" (there are some exceptions for farm vehicles). So Bridleways, Green lanes etc are off limits unless vehicle fully complies.

 

Here is a extreme example to show how hard it is to find a "off road" area to use such a vehicle.

 

A garage owner who owns the freehold on his forecourt but is serving a drink driving ban decides to move his stock around. Despite it being his own private property he is breaking the Law as the public have access to his forecourt (Driving while banned 2 years in jail).

 

So as its almost impossible to drive an none taxed,insured etc vehicle legally "off road" in this country . this may be why insurance companies dont want to know and if you do find one I suggest you read the small print carefully.

Thanks Garry,

 

This makes a massive amount of sense. We need to answer the question, where exactly is off road?

 

I cant imagine that all the S class bikes currently being sold in the UK are completely uncovered regarding third party, public liability and product liability insurance, but maybe they are? Are those selling S class bikes simply taking the risk that nothing ever goes wrong?

 

All the best

 

David

 

P.S. Yes I am talking about business insurance.

Edited March 5, 201313 yr by Wisper Bikes

50 cycles have speed pedelecs on their website, could contact them

Thanks David, I will drop them a line, but they may not be too happy to assist.

 

All the best

 

David

Legally off-road for driving and riding means being on enclosed private land that the public have no formal access to. It must also be with the landowners/lessees permission.

 

A private estate or farm should be suitable and I doubt the provisions of the right-to-roam legislation

alters that private status in this respect since it's not nominated land specific. However, an area of enclosed land which includes a public footpath which is an established right of way should not be considered as private for this purpose.

Thanks Flecc,

 

Following a little bit more research this afternoon, it seems insurance simply is not available for S Class bikes in the UK as they are not road legal here. Although it may be possible to claim on manufacturers insurance if the bike is made in Germany for instance. I imagine though there would be a very expensive court battle to be fought to prove liability for the failure of an uninsured piece of kit being ridden especially if it is being ridden "off road".

 

If an illegal bike were to fail when being used on private land or pubic roads which directly caused injury either the rider or worse still a member of the public. Who would pick up the bill for personal injury and third party property damage? The rider? The dealer? The distributor? The Manufacturer? The only thing as far as I can see for sure, is that one of those four would be left with the liability.

 

All the best

 

David

David, what about if registered as moped as discussed in another thread? It would be interesting to know how the DVLA would approach such as request. As I am, not aware of anyone doing it is hard to say. Of course you would need some form of insurance for this to be legal but would be interesting to know.

Good point David,

 

I am sure that would be fine after the bike had been Type Approved. I will follow the idea up whilst looking into the whole subject of Type Approval.

 

All the best

 

David

David, what about if registered as moped as discussed in another thread? It would be interesting to know how the DVLA would approach such as request. As I am, not aware of anyone doing it is hard to say. Of course you would need some form of insurance for this to be legal but would be interesting to know.

 

Which brings up tha old question which no one has ever answered. Has anyone successfully registerd a S class bike as a moped/motorbike ?. Personally I think the deafening silence form the trade members on here who sell them for "off road" use says it all as Im sure if they had they would be shouting about it..

I asked this question on a similar thread and got no responce. There are however several reviews of a speed pedelec on 50 cycles site, which does make me wonder how many are out there. The legality of e bikes has been discussed at length but one thing is for sure no speed pedelec is legal on the road without adhering to moped laws in the UK. If you cannot get insurance it would make it impossible for them to be legal even if you could register them with the DVLA.

Who would pick up the bill for personal injury and third party property damage? The rider? The dealer? The distributor? The Manufacturer? The only thing as far as I can see for sure, is that one of those four would be left with the liability.

 

All the best

 

David

 

Even the landowner could have liability David, if they had not specified that the "off-road" use was at the operators own risk, with that disclaimer preferably in writing.

Good point Flecc,

 

It seems people selling S Pedelecs in the UK are doing so without proper insurance. (I would love to be proved wrong!) I guess in most cases it is perfectly innocent and they do not realise there is such an issue with these bikes.

 

If things did go badly wrong, and the rider managed to shift liability, it could cost the Directors of any business selling such bikes dearly, they would possibly become personally liable for any costs not covered by the their business, due to negligence. I imagine that if the Directors could not afford to pay the bill liability could well move to the land owner.

 

As I say, I would like to be proved wrong as there is obviously a demand for such bikes or the dongles which enable legal bikes to become S Bikes (Almost!).

 

All the best

 

David

I don't think a selling company could be held liable if they behave sensibly David, for example by avoiding any implication that the vehicle could be used on the public roads. That would mean avoiding such terms as pedelec or electric assist, only referring to the S class as electric bicycles/bikes which carries no inference other than being an electrically propelled vehicle. Safest of all of course would be a prominent disclaimer that they are not for public road use, but that isn't necessary in my opinion.

 

My views are based on the fact that there is no law against selling any vehicle of any type, the legal onus for suitable use rests entirely with the purchaser. There are of course numerous precedents of companies selling vehicles which are illegal on our roads, and not just with two wheelers.

I asked this question on a similar thread and got no responce. There are however several reviews of a speed pedelec on 50 cycles site, which does make me wonder how many are out there. The legality of e bikes has been discussed at length but one thing is for sure no speed pedelec is legal on the road without adhering to moped laws in the UK. If you cannot get insurance it would make it impossible for them to be legal even if you could register them with the DVLA.

 

I came quite close to buying an S-class pedelec from 50 cycles last year - but opted for a non-S class variant instead.

 

That was at the time when there was some publicity regarding S-class riders finding themselves in some deep trouble with the law as a result of having come to the attention of the police. One of those had been involved in an accident with a bus which might well have not been his fault.

 

50 cycles did say that the S-class bikes they imported came with compliance certification (presumably German) and that it 'should' be relatively easy to get through the British type approval regulations. However, if you really wanted a moped, presumably you'd get a 'proper' one rather than feel somewhat foolish on a bicycle disporting a large bright yellow rear number plate, (free) tax disk and wearing a motorbike/scooter crash helmet.

 

I didn't see any insurance company offering insurance at a sensible price - with no precedent having been established they priced themselves out rather than be bothered with it at a reasonable or realistic price.

 

No doubt there are quite a few S-class bikes out there with the owners taking their chances and hoping for the best. Also of course there will be non-S-class bikes which nevertheless are not intended to comply with our rules. As has been said, a good few are advertised on here!

 

Has anybody who contributes on here fallen foul of the law? Would they come clean and tell us of their foolish misfortune? Your guess is as good as mine.

 

Rog.

Edited March 5, 201313 yr by rog_london

there is demand for loads of things that are not legal but for which people think they can get away with it (and usually can)

 

eg

motorcycle exhuasts.

incorrectly spaced number plates

 

All of which can be legally sold as "not for road use" and at a guess in each case the seller is gambling it will not come back to bite them. (It usually doesnt even if buyer gets caught).

 

I guess some people look at the risk and decide its worth it.

 

All of which can be legally sold as "not for road use" and at a guess in each case the seller is gambling it will not come back to bite them. (It usually doesnt even if buyer gets caught).

 

I guess some people look at the risk and decide its worth it.

 

Of course they do - we all like to think we're getting away with something. It's human nature. However, people do get caught doing one or both of the examples you mention - neither of which, I would suggest, are particularly serious. However, if you get caught riding an S-class bike it's an entirely different matter - you'll probably lose the bike, possibly your licence, and a sizeable chunk of money. It's an uninsured, unregistered motor vehicle - not, in law, a bicycle at all. If you're also a car driver the hike in insurance for that vehicle due to having at least six points on your licence will be in addition to all the above.

 

I guess the most likely way for someone to come unstuck would be because of an accident - whether it would be your fault or not is immaterial. Of course 'it would never happen to me' we've all heard before.

 

Rog.

I understand that it is legal to sell S Class bikes in the UK.

 

My worry is more regarding insurance, and what would happen if a claim was made against a rider involved in an accident in which a third party had been injured. If the bike was found subsequently found to be faulty in some way. Where would the liability lay and is it possible to buy insurance to provide for this liability?

 

All the best

 

David

I understand that it is legal to sell S Class bikes in the UK.

 

My worry is more regarding insurance, and what would happen if a claim was made against a rider involved in an accident in which a third party had been injured. If the bike was found subsequently found to be faulty in some way. Where would the liability lay and is it possible to buy insurance to provide for this liability?

 

All the best

 

David

 

As I understand it, that's the whole point of basic Road Traffic Acts insurance - to cover the rider against third-party liability. I believe it's not possible for an insurance company to repudiate a third party claim even if the bike proved to be 'faulty'.

 

RTA insurance only applies to a 'motor vehicle' however. Would the S-class bike be fully legal - registered, taxed, insured, and ridden with a moped licence? Imagine that - if you didn't have at least a full moped licence you'd have to do CBT - on a motorbike or moped - to get a provisional licence to ride a motorised bicycle!

 

If the S-class bike were being ridden legally on private land closed to the public I don't know where you might stand if someone were injured. In some respects the law is really tricky - you could be liable for an injury to a trespasser on your closed land. That's well established - if someone gains unauthorised access to a building site and sustains injury while trespassing the site owner may well be liable.

 

Rog.

You do not need a CBT if your car licence is pre February 2001. That much is certain. So that would not be a problem for most people

#https://www.gov.uk/cbt-compulsory-basic-training/overview

 

(Taken from Government website)

As I understand it, that's the whole point of basic Road Traffic Acts insurance - to cover the rider against third-party liability. I believe it's not possible for an insurance company to repudiate a third party claim even if the bike proved to be 'faulty'.

 

Rog.

 

Thanks Rog,

 

If the rider managed to get RTA insurance I would worry that if there was a fault with the bike which was proved to have caused the accident, the rider's insurers would look to bike the supplier to reclaim their loss.

 

There will be an incident involving an S Pedelec sooner or later, if all the parties involved are not adequately covered there will probably be serious consequences, and of course a lot of bad publicity.

 

Al the best

 

David

David, your questions have got me wondering how any prospective buyer gets to test ride any of these bikes.

If I turn up at a cycle shop wanting to try one I would hope that any responsible retailer would make me aware that legally they can only be used off-road. This would seem to put them (& me) on dodgy territory if they then allow me to test ride one off up the road.

If I turn up at a cycle shop wanting to try one

 

Profit on sale £££

Risk of being caught ≅ 0

 

Money talks (or is it greed )

You do not need a CBT if your car licence is pre February 2001. That much is certain. So that would not be a problem for most people

#https://www.gov.uk/cbt-compulsory-basic-training/overview

 

(Taken from Government website)

 

I was aware of that and maybe I should have made it clearer, although I did say 'at least a moped licence' , and I certainly agree that you would have exactly that if you had held a full car licence for long enough.

 

I would assume though that not everyone on here was at least 17 (ish) in 2001. There must be a few under-30-year-olds who have an interest in ebikes. I really do hope that an ebike is not simply regarded as a mobility scooter minus one or two wheels - well, not by everyone, at least.

 

Rog.

As I understand it, that's the whole point of basic Road Traffic Acts insurance - to cover the rider against third-party liability. I believe it's not possible for an insurance company to repudiate a third party claim even if the bike proved to be 'faulty'.

 

a/ No, the whole point of compulsory third party insurance is to provide for the victim.

b/ surely the insurance company has every right to repudiate unfair or spurious claims?

c/ what has the Road Traffic Act got to do with people on bicycles?

Edited March 5, 201313 yr by hech