Samsung - are we just paying for the name?

Hailong Samsung 18650 battery packs:

The first battery packs I looked at were Hailong, in a hard case (meant to fit to the bottle cage mounts on a down tube) that use Samsung 18650 batteries. These packs are expensive - presumably because they have Samsung cells? A 48V 17.5Ah battery from Junstar on Amazon in the UK, currently costs about £400. Since that is a huge sum of money, I started looking at other options...

 

LiitoKala 21700 battery packs:

These battery packs aren't in a hard case, they are shrink wrapped and don't have an on/off switch. They just have 2 wires coming out, one to power the motor and one to charge it. The advantage to these packs is, they are more compact, because they use 21700 cells - for example you can get a 48V 25Ah pack that is only 28.5cm x 11cm x 7.5cm. This is an overall volume of 2.35 litres. Compare that to the size of a Hailong 47V 17.5Ah pack that's 36.7cm x 9.0cm x 11.1cm - a total volume of 3.67 liters.

 

That's a big difference in size and price!

 

 

Direct comparison:

 

Hailong 48V 17.5Ah (Amazon UK) Junstar:

- Price: £404.87

- Capacity: 17.5Ah

- Size: 36.7cm x 9.0cm x 11.1cm

- Volume: 3.67 liters

- Weight: 4.1 KG

- Battery type: Samsung 18650

 

LiitoKala 48V 25Ah (AliExpress) liitokala Official Store:

- Price with shipping and VAT added: £222.94

- Capacity: 25Ah

- Size: 28.5cm x 11cm x 7.5cm

- Volume: 2.35 liters

- Weight: 5 KG

- Battery type: Unbranded 21700

 

The Hailong starts to look like a silly option?

The Hailong is 82% more expensive.

The LiitoKala has 43% more capacity.

The Hailong is 56% bigger by volume.

 

So, why is this? Are we just paying for the brand name with Samsung?

 

The Hailong hard case isn't an expensive addon, nor is the base plate it plugs into (about £30) so it's not that.

 

If you don't care about mounting the battery on your down tube, what reason could there possibly be to buy the Hailong/Samsung battery?

Hailong only manufacture the plastic cases. Anything could be inside depending on who maks the battery.

https://ebikebatteries.co.uk/

 

he can custom build any batt and size and you can pick the cells, he wont use crap ones and offer warranty.

 

a 25ah batt for £222 means crap cells and imo fake as decent cells are not cheap say £5 each for good ones

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCaDz_2YcGQ:179

https://ebikebatteries.co.uk/

 

he can custom build any batt and size and you can pick the cells, he wont use crap ones and offer warranty.

 

a 25ah batt for £222 means crap cells and imo fake as decent cells are not cheap say £5 each for good ones

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCaDz_2YcGQ:179

 

Jimmys work may not be as good as is claimed going by the welds on this battery he built that is for sale

he never made that battery if it is no good he could send it back under warranty he has a 30k spot welder and uses copper strip to connect the cells.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2lrSw5zli8:311

a 25ah batt for £222 means crap cells and imo fake as decent cells are not cheap say £5 each for good ones

 

They should probably be even more than that since they are 21700 supposedly with 5000 mAh each.

 

The store selling them says the cells are:

LiitoKala 21700 5000mAh 3C(Lii-50E)

 

That's 65 cells. Even if they are £5 each that's £325.

 

I think I'll probably end up just getting the Junstar one lol

 

When it starts getting to £500 and £600 for one, that's the point I think I won't bother, it's just too much.

 

https://www.thunderheartreviews.com/2019/08/lg-m50t-grade-a-test.html

The store itself sells them at £3.04 per battery...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32845153871.html

 

If you buy ten they go down to £2.30 each.

 

What the hell man, that's ludicrous... thus I am ludicrously wary about them.

 

The 1-star reviews fluctuate between people saying the capacity is 4,600mAh (not that far off claimed) and 3,300mAh (miles out). The worst thing is these people are saying AliExpress is siding with the sellers and not refunding people.

 

I think I found exactly what I need - a shrink wrapped battery, sold in the UK, that's 21700, that's Samsung, that's compact, that's 25Ah. The guy also adds an on/off switch to it. Comes with charger, for £485:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114726404895?var=414883490635

 

The guy has over 4,000 feedback and not one single negative. That takes some doing.

 

What I like about those is, they are pretty small at 28cm x 12cm x 7.5cm.

 

At this point I might sound like a shill but no, I dunno who the guy is on eBay, I have been looking for probably 3 weeks for a battery lol... and who knows if I end up buying the one above, but it's an improvement to me over those down tube ones I kept looking at, when it's not going on my down tube. It's also an improvement over the dodgy China $3 per cell ones I have seen.

 

Time to make another cardboard box to see where it might fit...

Edited July 20, 20214 yr by Manc44

You get what you pay for, I have a 36v 15ah Samsung celled battery and it's lasted very well, no issues at all.

Are we just paying for the brand name

I'm really interested by that question. People pay a premium for branded cells - LG, Samsung, Panasonic, Sony etc - but these are just brands we are familiar with and trust in the Western world. There seem to be several brands known in the Eastern world that mean nothing to us, but held in some regard there. Are they really rubbish cells, or just given no credibility and dismissed out of hand because they're made by a brand we don't recognise here?

 

I'm intrigued because I've just bought a cheap Fiido folding e-bike. As a company now making and selling (they claim) 400,000 e-bikes a year - retailing from £500 to £1200 - we hear almost nothing of battery problems.

 

As far as I can establish, my £800 Fiido e-bike uses DMEGC INR18650 29E 3.7V 2900mAh (reseller link) 10A continuous, punted as a lower cost equivalent spec cell to LG MG1 and Samsung 29E.

 

How bad can they be?

Fiido Li-ion DMEGC made Cells INR18650-29E.pdf

Sounds like a Sam 29E rebadge or could even be rejects who knows ?

The LG MG1 was a very mediocre cell at best and know where near as good as the 29E.

 

Generally if any of these eastern cells were of any notability, testers like Mooch on e cig forums and others on ES may have tested one or two. Mooch has tested 100's of differing cells and openly supplies all info on e-cigs with graphs and charts.

Some are literally just resellers who re shrink in a new wrap using below par cells form major brand producers, the issue is weeding out the poor sellers and the better producers of less known origin.

 

BMZ are a big player in eastern EU and from Taiwan Molycell are a major player now and one of the big brands but less well known. Recently there 2600mah 18650 has been rated as an outstanding performing cell and a match for the best branded cell around.

Edited August 1, 20214 yr by Nealh

Obviously we are paying for a name as do those who go one about Bosh and R&M etc,etc.

As always buying cells needs research and trying to find independent findings on them before making a decision.

Sounds like a Sam 29E rebadge or could even be rejects who knows ?

That seems doubtful to me...

 

DMEGC (like BMZ) principally make OEM/ODM batteries (of several chemistries) for many throughout the US and Europe. Their website even claims LG as a customer.

 

DMEGC do seem to have a pretty big, swanky factory, they claim making 80,000 x 18650 cells a day (among many other cell types). If Fiido alone are selling (a claimed) 400,000 e-bikes a year, taking typically 40 cells per bike, that's 16 million cells a year - which is 2/3 of DMEGC's stated lithium cell capacity. That may be why other makers don't get much of a look-in and why people like Mooch haven't come across them?

 

I think it'd be unusual to find an A1 top-performing cell fitted in a £500 e-bike: Fiido's original D4S battery, 36v/10.4Ah, UK stocked replacement is £148 including shipping. But then the Samsung cells fitted in my 3 other e-bike batteries aren't exactly blistering "top-performance" cells either - and they average £450 for similar capacity. Even the "brands" churn out a lot of "mediocre" cells. At least there are no reported premature failures/faults/problems with these DMEGC cells that I can find, but it'd be nice if someone like Mooch thrashed one. I'm sure Fiido will have already done that though - "due diligence".

I'm really interested by that question. People pay a premium for branded cells - LG, Samsung, Panasonic, Sony etc - but these are just brands we are familiar with and trust in the Western world. There seem to be several brands known in the Eastern world that mean nothing to us, but held in some regard there. Are they really rubbish cells, or just given no credibility and dismissed out of hand because they're made by a brand we don't recognise here?

 

Good point. Many years ago an Oriental company tried selling TVs here with the brand name Lucky Goldstar. They didn't sell so they tried just Goldstar, but that didn't work.

 

So they tried again with just the initials of their first name tried:

 

LG

 

and they've never looked back since, becoming one of the giants.

.

I've had an increasing number of bad experiences in recent years with buying "premium" known brands - including LG, a product that failed catastrophically straight out-of-the-box. To me, these brands mostly seem to thrive now on past glories and reputations rather than current merit.

 

Countering that, many hitherto unknown Chinese manufacturers are really upping their game: No longer content with simply copying Western leaders, they're refining and pushing boundaries - in terms of superior quality, design, function, and price - which put the so-called established market leaders to shame... and in many cases leaving them far behind by a comfortable margin.

Unfortunately, alongside excellent Chinese manufacturing, there is a thriving Chinese industry of selling defective products with dishonest claims. I'm getting pretty tired of fighting for refunds after receiving dishonestly described goods and sharp practice, such as Ebay items promised for three day delivery, 'from UK stock' which turn out to be still in China and not available in four days at all - more like thirty or forty. I recently cancelled a deal with a Chinese seller for a BBS02 mid drive and battery combo (£710) when on ordering, I was informed that the battery was in China and would be delivered a month after the motor.

 

It is a shame, because good Chinese manufacturing and some dealers are outstanding.

 

Buyer beware on cheap batteries.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114726404895?var=414883490635

 

The guy has over 4,000 feedback and not one single negative. That takes some doing.

I reckon of the 4,000+ reviews, a few tens (~50) are for batteries if you examine the feedback as a seller. The vast majority are for other items. However, on the plus side the label on that battery points to this site:

https://eequalspower.co.uk/

which appears to be legit and matches the city of the eBay seller - Durham.

 

The website has a mobile number (and a postcode which is legit), so you can ring and quiz him before parting with money.

I reckon of the 4,000+ reviews, a few tens (~50) are for batteries if you examine the feedback as a seller. The vast majority are for other items. However, on the plus side the label on that battery points to this site:

https://eequalspower.co.uk/

which appears to be legit and matches the city of the eBay seller - Durham.

 

The website has a mobile number (and a postcode which is legit), so you can ring and quiz him before parting with money.

 

I know that guy at E=Power. He is called Billy Milburn. He stands by his products. I bought a 250 watt Bafang mid drive ebike conversion from him about a month ago. Love it. I know he stands by his products because he sorted out a problem I had. The display unit started showing dead pixels (lines appeared on the screen - certainly not his fault) and he replaced it at once. As soon as I called him about the lines on the screen he apologised and said 'Bring it back sir, and I will replace it while you wait.' When I went back to get the warranty fix done, he did it immediately and gave me a free Bafang front light and refused to take any money for it. I think the bike he sold me was good value and the 13AHr, 36 Volt battery works well. In pedal assist mode 2 (of 5), I got sixty miles out of it in the Lake District, before it packed in and shut down. There was a fair bit of climbing involved in that, but I was working hard myself. Later, I easily got 45 miles on a ride around Northumberland where I live with 3000 feet of climbing. It still showed 35 volts after that. Obviously, the more work you take out of the battery as against your own pedalling, the less mileage you will get. He makes his own battery packs and I have been in his workshop, which is at a place called Eshwinning. I'd say he is honest, hard working and doesn't take a large margin for his work. I have confidence in him to do right by my ebike.

I continue to be impressed by my couple of 3 year old Chinese Cell Yosepower 13ah 36v Hailong type batteries, still going great with no noticeable drop in performance or range from new

I continue to be impressed by my couple of 3 year old Chinese Cell Yosepower 13ah 36v Hailong type batteries, still going great with no noticeable drop in performance or range from new

That's a good recommendation because they are quite old now, and they are not that expensive. Did you use any special charging regime, such as only charging to 41v and not going below about 34v? What is your pattern of usage for the bikes the batteries drive? Daily commute or occasional recreational rides?

 

Thanks.

It's too late now, I took the chance and ordered a LiitoKala 48V/25Ah shrink wrapped pack.

 

Going off reviews, it's going to be more like 21Ah in reality. It was about £216 with shipping and VAT included in that. That's £10.29 per Ah compared to £19.40 per Ah for the UK (eBay) pack.

 

It's not that I don't think the UK pack is worth it, it's actually cheap compared to other packs I have seen in the UK, but I just didn't have enough money at the end of the day and I'm impatient.

 

Once I had my heart set on a shrink wrapped 21700 pack, my choices became more limited, since everywhere seems to sell battery packs in those Hailong cases, that wastes space! The size of those 48v/25Ah is small in comparison. The only problem, as always, is the weight of the things.

 

Hailong 24Ah down tube style hard case with 91 x 18650:

36.7cm x 9cm x 12.7cm = 4.19 liters.

 

Shrink wrapped 25Ah with 65 x 21700 (inc. BMS):

29.5cm x 7.5cm x 11cm = 2.43 liters.

 

That is a huge difference in sizes.

 

The 18650 hard case version is 1.76 times bigger.

Edited August 2, 20214 yr by Manc44

Please update us on this thread in a month or so. It will be useful advice for others looking.

Cheers.

https://ebikebatteries.co.uk/

 

he can custom build any batt and size and you can pick the cells, he wont use crap ones and offer warranty.

 

a 25ah batt for £222 means crap cells and imo fake as decent cells are not cheap say £5 each for good ones

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCaDz_2YcGQ:179

 

That fellow Louis who had the fire is his own worst enemy.

 

I think that fire was caused by his installation rather than the battery. If you look at the video, he shows an installation diagram and he has two large batteries paralleled up on the outputs. He does have them separated by a bridge rectifier, but if that rectifier failed short circuit, which it could do, then the battery outputs would be directly connected and any imbalance between their state of charge would cause a very large flow of current between them. I think it was that which caused the fire rather than a cheap battery. Some of the comments on the Yotube video also make the same point. He does not respond to these of course, because he is looking for clicks rather than facts.

That's a good recommendation because they are quite old now, and they are not that expensive. Did you use any special charging regime, such as only charging to 41v and not going below about 34v? What is your pattern of usage for the bikes the batteries drive? Daily commute or occasional recreational rides?

 

Thanks.

no special charging regime, can't be bothered with all that... used on and off, average a couple of times a week over last 3 years, less used now as have some larger capacity ones, but charged back up to full every time after use, and occasionally when on a long ride when I have taken a spare battery, completely flattened to the point of power off (31v?)... recently used one on a ride as a testing , full assist level 9 (bafang 250w mid drive bbs01), I got 30 miles out of it, my normal level 3/4 (approx 100 w) I reckon it'll still be good for 45 to 50 miles

no special charging regime, can't be bothered with all that... used on and off, average a couple of times a week over last 3 years, less used now as have some larger capacity ones, but charged back up to full every time after use, and occasionally when on a long ride when I have taken a spare battery, completely flattened to the point of power off (31v?)... recently used one on a ride as a testing , full assist level 9 (bafang 250w mid drive bbs01), I got 30 miles out of it, my normal level 3/4 (approx 100 w) I reckon it'll still be good for 45 to 50 miles

 

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I missed it for a few days.

 

Interesting info on your test there. I have a Billy Milburn ebike conversion and his battery pack. The motor is the Bafang BBS01 - I think the newer version since it was built up in 2020. The battery pack is his E=Power, hard cased 36v, 13 Amp Hour type, I think with Samsung cells - 50 cells I suppose.

 

Using my 250 watt Bafang mid drive on level 2 of 5, I managed 65 miles in the Lake District before it started to cut off. Quite a lot of climbing involved in that, but also a lot of hard work from me. On a recent ride in the Tyne Valley, I did 45 miles at a variety of settings, but mostly level 2 of 5, but also 3of 5 and with some throttle on steep hills at full power. The ride involved a total of 3000 feet of climbing and the battery was nearly done in after that, but still allowed me to keep going at level 1 of 5 to finish the ride.

 

I find that riding at level 3 of 5, I get about 35 miles before getting down to 33.5 volts under load. Obviously, when the road levels out and power is not being drawn, the voltage rises again.

 

So far - about 450 miles ridden, I think the battery is OK and so is the motor. You really can't hear the motor in any circumstances on the road as road noise and wind are louder. It must be well greased up inside or I think I would hear more from it. My partner has a Bafang 250 watt hub motor and that is loud by comparison - especially under load.