Problem with Chinese postal service ?

Blew it

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Jun 8, 2008
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Ouch!

....and I've just received an invoice from TNT for £30 to cover import duties on my 'Little Frog' battery. And that's on top of the extra £17 postage I had to pay for shipping via TNT.

Oh well! win some-lose some :rolleyes:
 

morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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....and I've just received an invoice from TNT for £30 to cover import duties on my 'Little Frog' battery. And that's on top of the extra £17 postage I had to pay for shipping via TNT.

Oh well! win some-lose some :rolleyes:
Ignore the "deferment/VAT clearance fee". It's a racket. I ignore it and they've never bothered to pursue me.

In future, when you have anything shipped, before it arrives in UK, tell the carrier (TNT or whoever) that you want to pay the VAT and Duty DIRECTLY to HMRC on arrival (or you can do it on receipt of their VAT bill). They will probably tell you, you can't, and it has to go via their deferment account. That's a load of rubbish, I've got it in writing from HMRC which I'm happy to provide on request to anyone. Stand your ground and tell them, its your right to pay HMRC directly and HMRC are happy to take direct payments for import taxes from the public. There's no law or contract between you and the carrier to pay a fee for any clearance service. Most carriers when faced with this will back down and realise they're not going to get anywhere.. you might get a few automated reminders and the "final reminder" and threats of being passed to a debt collector etc, but just ignore them.. in my experience for such a small sum they won't bother trying to pursue it, especially since as I said they have no legal contract, so no leg to stand on in court.

You can do as I do, just pay the VAT/Duty to them and ignore the fee stating there's no express agreement or contract between you and them to pay it, and you wouldn't have agreed to pay it, knowing the above i.e. that you can pay these taxes directly to HMRC and cut out the middle man. Or if you like, be extra cheeky and just pay them whatever you deem to be a reasonable fee for their "service"... £2? It's largely automated anyway. £15-£17 is pure extortion, especially in many cases where it costs as much as the shipping or up to 50% of it.
 
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morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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One carrier (TNT) once was quite persistent and tried to me tell me there was a law which gave them the legal right to charge a customs clearance fee and the law placed a legal burden on the public importing goods to pay it. When I asked which law that was, they couldn't tell me. I made enquiries about the law with HMRC who said it's nothing to do with them and to contact the UK Border Agency. I did so, and to date, they have never replied. The only law I can find remotely similar, is that couriers have an obligation to clear items through customs (which is now under the remit of Border Agency, not HMRC), declare the shipping cost and customs taxable value etc...this is an automated system all carriers use (I forget the name of it). There's nothing specifically in the law that gives them a right to charge a fee for that service or places any legal obligation on the public to pay them.

I faxed TNT the letter i got from HMRC saying the public can pay import taxes directly to us, and that soon shut TNT up. They removed the charge off my bill at my request, and re-issued it for just the VAT and Duty!
 
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Old_Dave

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Sep 15, 2012
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It would be 'nice' if the couriers tracking info showed (kinda like wot parcelfarce does) that the item had cleared customs but a vat charge of £x had been levied, rather than just a letter arriving out of the blue some weeks after the parcel had been received.

Yesterday I got smited with a £7 vat and £10.50 advancement fee for a delivery 2 1/2 weeks ago, so will be following morphix's advise.
 

morphix

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It would be 'nice' if the couriers tracking info showed (kinda like wot parcelfarce does) that the item had cleared customs but a vat charge of £x had been levied, rather than just a letter arriving out of the blue some weeks after the parcel had been received.

Yesterday I got smited with a £7 vat and £10.50 advancement fee for a delivery 2 1/2 weeks ago, so will be following morphix's advise.
I just had a package sent (freewheel) from China by EMS via AliExpress which has tracking links incorporated.. the site is a load of rubbish, and the tracking doesn't work.. first of all, it links to Royal Mail! When you actually enter the tracking number on the right site, it gives a server error! Conclusion: The Chinese Postal Service site is broken, and they don't reply to e-mails either.
 

morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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It would be 'nice' if the couriers tracking info showed (kinda like wot parcelfarce does) that the item had cleared customs but a vat charge of £x had been levied, rather than just a letter arriving out of the blue some weeks after the parcel had been received.

Yesterday I got smited with a £7 vat and £10.50 advancement fee for a delivery 2 1/2 weeks ago, so will be following morphix's advise.
These courier costs we're paying are not exactly cheap eh, and the cost should include any work that's involved logging the items onto the customs clearance system. I think they use the add-on clearance fee/deferment fee as an excuse to make extra profits. If you look at it as like a loan, because their argument is they're paying the VAT and Duty for you to speed up customs clearance (but in reality they don't pay anything, as their deferment account is essentially a "credit"/arrears account with HMRC), it's like an extortionate amount of interest between goods arriving, them paying the taxes, and you paying their bill on receipt..maybe a few days later..
 

Scimitar

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Jul 31, 2010
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When I'm ordering from outside the EU I try to have things sent by EMS or from the US via USPS, as the large courier companies deliberately single out packages for customs clearance and the chance to levy their extra handling charges. They really are a shower of bas tards.
I don't mind paying proper Customs charges - it's hardly onerous, and I get a warm glow of participating in the economy :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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When I'm ordering from outside the EU I try to have things sent by EMS or from the US via USPS, as the large courier companies deliberately single out packages for customs clearance and the chance to levy their extra handling charges.
Ditto, I always select USPS from the States and have never been ripped off doing that, and the service isn't too bad either, just a bit slower.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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I just had a package sent (freewheel) from China by EMS via AliExpress which has tracking links incorporated.. the site is a load of rubbish, and the tracking doesn't work.. first of all, it links to Royal Mail! When you actually enter the tracking number on the right site, it gives a server error! Conclusion: The Chinese Postal Service site is broken, and they don't reply to e-mails either.
I had a similar exerience with my torch, but once it arrived in the UK, I could track it in the Royal Mail system using the Chinese tracking number thay gave me. I guess that the Royal Mail Tracking system doesn't know that the package exists until it arrives, which is logical.
 

Jeremy

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Oct 25, 2007
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Ditto, I always select USPS from the States and have never been ripped off doing that, and the service isn't too bad either, just a bit slower.
Likewise. My experience has been that EMS and USPS are frequently the least likely to attract extra fees, or even attract duty and VAT at all. UPS, FedEx etc will pretty much always charge a fee plus duty and VAT, and I'm of the view that it is a deliberate policy to increase their profits.

I'm interested by what morphix has posted. AFAICS from a cursory look there is no law that gives these companies any lawful right to charge for paying duty and VAT on your behalf, other than normal contract law. As morphix correctly points out, in the majority of cases you will have made no contract with them, either explicit of implicit, therefore you only need to pay these charges if you have agreed to in advance. In the case of FedEx (and maybe others who habitually give no warning of impending charges) then you are under no obligation to pay their "handling fee" at all. You are also under no legal obligation to tell them in advance that you will not pay their handling fee, again as you have no contract with them.

To have a contract with anyone under the law of England and Wales you need three things between the parties, an offer, the acceptance of that offer and the exchange of a consideration. It doesn't need to be in writing, but all three of the above conditions need to be satisfied for any contract to be legally binding. In this case there is no offer from the courier, and unless you agree with their request there is no acceptance, so even though there is the exchange of a consideration (they have performed a service on your behalf by paying the duty and VAT) then no contract exists.

The courier company could argue that, by accepting delivery from them, you have agreed to their terms and conditions, which will almost certainly include mention of the fees for customs clearance. However, for that argument to stand up legally, the courier company would have to provide evidence that:

1) You were aware in advance that they were the courier company delivering the package.

2) That it is reasonable to assume that a person who is not a customer of their company should know and understand the terms and conditions that they use.

I believe that either of these tests could easily fail in court, especially for someone who does not regularly receive packages from overseas. Many people receiving deliveries are unaware of the identity of the courier company delivering the item, and also the reasonableness test would be likely to fail, in that most people (and this is that good old "man on the Clapham omnibus" legal test) would probably think it unreasonable that the recipient of a package from an unknown courier should be aware, in advance, of the detailed terms and conditions of that courier as they relate to making charges for customs clearance.

The flip side is that if you regularly receive packages from couriers who charge fees, then the courts may well take the view that a contract does exist, in that you could be viewed as having been aware that the offer was implicit (as part of the Ts & Cs) in the use of that courier and that your receipt of the package constituted acceptance on your part of that offer.
 
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Gdread

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Sep 9, 2012
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Likewise. My experience has been that EMS and USPS are frequently the least likely to attract extra fees, or even attract duty and VAT at all. UPS, FedEx etc will pretty much always charge a fee plus duty and VAT, and I'm of the view that it is a deliberate policy to increase their profits.

I used EMS with Greenbikekit and discovered that EMS is 'Parcel from Hong Kong' and they feed into Parcel Force in the uk and they were quite enthusiastic about collecting the duty.....
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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I'm getting caught more and more for bike stuff now. I just had to pay £15 for four chargers. Fedex.
 

morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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I just received a "final notice" this week from FedEx for their £10.50 "deferment fee" on my BMS Battery order from November! They're threatening debt collectors, charges and adverse credit report.. I've told them where to go and what I'll do to them if they even try to pursue it. I spelled out they have no legal contract or basis for the charge. I expect it's just an automated threat to extort..but I'll update if anything happens.. I'm fully prepared to go head to head with FedEx in County Court if need be and challenge the legality of their charge and biz practice. Someone needs to stamp this shoddy practice out of the courier industry and get a landmark court ruling eh. If they just charged a REASONABLE charge like £2 I wouldn't mind and would pay it, but £10-£15 is taking the p*** for what is a largely automated VAT deferment system which they operate on CREDIT with HMRC so they're not even paying out any cash, it's equally annoying that my VAT+Duty was only £7.
 
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amigafan2003

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Jul 12, 2011
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I just received a "final notice" this week from FedEx for their £10.50 "deferment fee" on my BMS Battery order from November! They're threatening debt collectors, charges and adverse credit report.. I've told them where to go and what I'll do to them if they even try to pursue it. I spelled out they have no legal contract or basis for the charge. I expect it's just an automated threat to extort..but I'll update if anything happens.. I'm fully prepared to go head to head with FedEx in County Court if need be and challenge the legality of their charge and biz practice. Someone needs to stamp this shoddy practice out of the courier industry and get a landmark court ruling eh. If they just charged a REASONABLE charge like £2 I wouldn't mind and would pay it, but £10-£15 is taking the p*** for what is a largely automated VAT deferment system which they operate on CREDIT with HMRC so they're not even paying out any cash, it's equally annoying that my VAT+Duty was only £7.
Yeah, I've a couple of those letters as well.

The worst that can happen is they refuse to deliver to you in future.
 

morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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Yeah, I've a couple of those letters as well.

The worst that can happen is they refuse to deliver to you in future.
Yeah I guess so, that's no big loss as far as I'm concerned as I can get my stuff by sea freight via my business or via cheaper air carriers I use. It's better I think if you tell the carrier upfront before they pick up that you want to pay VAT+Duty on the "FAS" system direct to HMRC. Then they SHOULD send you a FAS notice and hold goods until HMRC confirm you paid.. that's how I normally do it.. obviously it's difficult though when Chinese are doing the courier booking at their end rather than yourself from UK. Even so, if you tell the Chinese to put a note to courier, then at least they have been told and that strengthens your argument that you didn't agree to defer eh.
 

jackhandy

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May 20, 2012
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My frog from bmsbattery arrived, via dhl, tuesday: It had tracked as far as Exeter depot, then was "held awaiting payment" for 24 hours. When the courier delivered it, it had a very prominent black & yellow sticker saying payment to be collected, but the bloke didn't mention it & handed it over.

I guess I should have asked if I owed anything...... But somehow my mouth must have disconnected at that point :eek:)

There was an invoice taped to the box, for £12.50 vat & a fiver charges, which doesn't seem extortionate, so I'll cough-up if pursued...... Eventually.
 
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morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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My frog from bmsbattery arrived, via dhl, tuesday: It had tracked as far as Exeter depot, then was "held awaiting payment" for 24 hours. When the courier delivered it, it had a very prominent black & yellow sticker saying payment to be collected, but the bloke didn't mention it & handed it over.

I guess I should have asked if I owed anything...... But somehow my mouth must have disconnected at that point :eek:)

There was an invoice taped to the box, for £12.50 vat & a fiver charges, which doesn't seem extortionate, so I'll cough-up if pursued...... Eventually.
Hehe, yeah it doesn't hurt to drag it out does it! If it creates extra admin costs and time every delivery to collect their charges, they SHOULD get the message and adopt a reasonable charge approach for instant payments..either that, or just decline to defer upfront as I said and make them go through the hassle of manual FAS system requests and payment checks on every delivery..that will slow them right down and make them realise adopting a fair and reasonable charge is the way forward.. well that's the theory ;-()