PAS kicking in too slowly for hill starts - decade old Diamond (Batribike)

[Joel]

We bought the Batribike (thanks for the advice @thelarkbox, @saneagle, @Nealh) and all is working well but in hilly Bristol we need more sensitivity from the PAS (which works well once you get going).

As you can see from the picture every other hole has a magnet in it so one option might be to source magnets and fill the holes (correct polarity)? Another option might be try to find another identical sized disc with more magnets (hard I imagine)? While I was reading other threads to see if someone had solved this problem already I saw it mentioned that PASs work with nearly every controller so I could just buy a more sensitive PAS (although how would I know if it was more sensitive)? I'm sure there are better solutions I haven't thought of.

The "6kph" walk function doesn't provide enough of a boost to get started. Also the thumb throttle doesn't do anything unless the bike is already moving (at which point you don't need to peddle).

Any help greatly appreciated.

 

[saneagle]

We bought the Batribike (thanks for the advice @thelarkbox, @saneagle, @Nealh) and all is working well but in hilly Bristol we need more sensitivity from the PAS (which works well once you get going).

As you can see from the picture every other hole has a magnet in it so one option might be to source magnets and fill the holes (correct polarity)? Another option might be try to find another identical sized disc with more magnets (hard I imagine)? While I was reading other threads to see if someone had solved this problem already I saw it mentioned that PASs work with nearly every controller so I could just buy a more sensitive PAS (although how would I know if it was more sensitive)? I'm sure there are better solutions I haven't thought of.

The "6kph" walk function doesn't provide enough of a boost to get started. Also the thumb throttle doesn't do anything unless the bike is already moving (at which point you don't need to peddle).

Any help greatly appreciated.

Nice theory, but the delay is more likely due to the time constant used by the controller to determine that you're pedalling. Many microprocessors have an input function "pulsing". The frequency and number of pulses makes no difference to it. It responds to the input when it sees pulsing. I can't say how the controller works exactly in that respect, but I'd recommend that you don't waste money on the pedal sensor. Instead, you'd be better off replacing the controller with one that has a faster response.

We always recommend KT controllers because they have a fast response time, and they will also transform your bike into a much better ride, as the control system is so much better than what you have.

To fit a KT controller, you'll need to change a couple of connectors, do some wwiring and a bit of soldering.

In general, the pedal sensors with 10 magnets or less work with any controller. When you go to 12, everybody on this forum (except me and Neal) seem to get problems with them. Actually, I have fixed bikes that didn't work with 12 magnet sensors. I had to remove every other magnet on one, which I'm pretty sure was a Battribike, interestingly. It had a large diameter 5 or 6 magnet disc that had broken. I could only get a 12 magnet one in that size. When I converted it to 6 magnets as a last resort, it worked, and I passed that advice to a guy on this forum, who was able to get his bike going to when it didn't work with 12 magnets.

 

[Nealh]

6kph is a walk assist and means just that , it isn't for riding with or a quick start assist. It is (due to the bikes weight ) a means of aiding it's fwd movement when needing to push the bike.

Thumb throttle is then legal , pedal first then the throttle becomes active .
If it was purely twist and go one would in law have a moped, the pedal first keeps the bike legally as an EAPC.

As has been said by d8veh it is the controller that dictates how the PAS works, extra or less magnets can't change the start sensitivity .
My KT's are about the best I have experienced, within 1/8th rotation or less the PAS is almost instant.

 

[Joel]

Thanks again really useful @saneagle & @Nealh. This bike predates the twist and go law so it could theoretically have throttle only operation and still be legal but Batribike don't have any wiring diagrams from the old days. I'll assume it can't be adapted unless you have a work around?

My wife just puts her electric bikes in high power and off she goes so I'm not sure she really needs the finesse of a KT Controller to nip to pilates. On this thread @saneagle https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/lcd-display-gone-dead-or-at-least-i-think-the-fault-is-at-the-display.46905/#post-708204
you recommended this controller and display combo: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brushless-Controller-24V-48V-Waterproof-Electric/dp/B08B3WGH6Q/ref=asc_df_B08B3WGH6Q/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=606643286790&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16388686652516510252&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007151&hvtargid=pla-1404380368059&mcid=dbb10af323b535778ae796c34bc08ecd&th=1
for another 250W Batribike of a similar vintage. Would that work for me or will it not have the quick PAS response of a KT? I'm also not good at soldering so that is another reason that dissuades me from considering a KT controller.

Attached is the current controller wiring (labelled from the perspective of the controller just in case the pictures aren't clear). Also attached is the connectors diagram from the Amazon link. Most of the connections look fine but some queries:

• 3 phase
• Display
• Battery (one is mislabelled as a Hall sensor)
• Lamp (don't currently have one but might fit)
• Throttle (looks like I'll have to get a connection adaptor/change a connector as both wires end with a male connector)
• Hall sensor (looks like it might be female so I'll have to get a connection adaptor/change a connector as both wires end with a female connector)
• Low potential brake (I assume this is the brake cut off connection but I'm not sure what the electric brake cable is?)
• Intelligent identification (I assume this is the learning setup connection?)

Thanks again.

 

[saneagle]

Thanks again really useful @saneagle & @Nealh. This bike predates the twist and go law so it could theoretically have throttle only operation and still be legal but Batribike don't have any wiring diagrams from the old days. I'll assume it can't be adapted unless you have a work around?

My wife just puts her electric bikes in high power and off she goes so I'm not sure she really needs the finesse of a KT Controller to nip to pilates. On this thread @saneagle https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/lcd-display-gone-dead-or-at-least-i-think-the-fault-is-at-the-display.46905/#post-708204
you recommended this controller and display combo: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brushless-Controller-24V-48V-Waterproof-Electric/dp/B08B3WGH6Q/ref=asc_df_B08B3WGH6Q/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=606643286790&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16388686652516510252&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007151&hvtargid=pla-1404380368059&mcid=dbb10af323b535778ae796c34bc08ecd&th=1
for another 250W Batribike of a similar vintage. Would that work for me or will it not have the quick PAS response of a KT? I'm also not good at soldering so that is another reason that dissuades me from considering a KT controller.

Attached is the current controller wiring (labelled from the perspective of the controller just in case the pictures aren't clear). Also attached is the connectors diagram from the Amazon link. Most of the connections look fine but some queries:

• 3 phase
• Display
• Battery (one is mislabelled as a Hall sensor)
• Lamp (don't currently have one but might fit)
• Throttle (looks like I'll have to get a connection adaptor/change a connector as both wires end with a male connector)
• Hall sensor (looks like it might be female so I'll have to get a connection adaptor/change a connector as both wires end with a female connector)
• Low potential brake (I assume this is the brake cut off connection but I'm not sure what the electric brake cable is?)
• Intelligent identification (I assume this is the learning setup connection?)

Thanks again.

Yes, that controller should work fine, but there's no guarantee that it'll have a better PAS response. If you decide to give it a go, don't forget to do the self-learning/intelligent identification procedure.

If the hall sensor connectors don't match, cut them off and solder the wires. you can always unsolder them or cut them if you ever need to change controllers again.

The only controllers that I can guarantee having a fast response are KT. Slow response is often a feature of cheap ones. It's a lottery what you get with them; however, modern ones are often better than the old ones because the microprocessors in them have improved.

 

[Joel]

Fair point, I don't want to have to replace the controller twice - I'm keen to minimise expenditure as 90% of our bikes are nicked so should I just go for the lowest priced KT controller/display combo or are there even KT ones I should avoid? I'm assuming an LCD display makes it easier to set up the controller than the current one (picture attached)? Also ChatGPT said I should worry about current if I fit a 350W compatible controller on a 250W motor but above you recommended a 350W controller for a 250W bike so is this not a big concern? It is a Bafang motor. Thanks Joel

 

[saneagle]

Fair point, I don't want to have to replace the controller twice - I'm keen to minimise expenditure as 90% of our bikes are nicked so should I just go for the lowest priced KT controller/display combo or are there even KT ones I should avoid? I'm assuming an LCD display makes it easier to set up the controller than the current one (picture attached)? Also ChatGPT said I should worry about current if I fit a 350W compatible controller on a 250W motor but above you recommended a 350W controller for a 250W bike so is this not a big concern? It is a Bafang motor. Thanks Joel

Chat GPT never built or tried an ebike. That should be your last source to get information from.

You must get an LCD to setup a KT controller. LCD5 and LCD3 are pretty good. Avoid LCD1 because it doesn't give access to necessary settings. LCD4 is OK if you fit a throttle. The up/down buttons are difficult to use if you have gloves, big fingers or cold hands.

 

[Ghost1951]

Chat GPT never built or tried an ebike. That should be your last source to get information from.

You must get an LCD to setup a KT controller. LCD5 and LCD3 are pretty good. Avoid LCD1 because it doesn't give access to necessary settings. LCD4 is OK if you fit a throttle. The up/down buttons are difficult to use if you have gloves, big fingers or cold hands.

Chat Gpt hasn't built an ebike, but i would bet money that it has read the whole of this forum including all of your posts during its training.

 

[Ghost1951]

I just asked it if it was familiar with this site and this is what it said:

Yes, I'm familiar with the UK Pedelecs forum at **Pedelecs.co.uk**. It's a popular online community for eBike enthusiasts, particularly in the UK, where members discuss various aspects of electric bikes, including DIY builds, legal regulations, product reviews, troubleshooting, and technical advice.

The forum is a great resource if you're building your own eBike or looking for specific information on controllers, motors, batteries, or other components. Members often share their experiences with different brands, including those of Chinese controllers, and provide practical advice and recommendations. It's also a good place to find updates on UK-specific eBike regulations and tips on ensuring your build complies with local laws.

If you're working on an eBike project, engaging with this community could be very helpful, as you'll find both novice and experienced builders who can offer insights or solutions to any challenges you might face.

 

[saneagle]

Chat Gpt hasn't built an ebike, but i would bet money that it has read the whole of this forum including all of your posts during its training.

It must be thick then because I've said many times that 250w and 350w markings have no relation to power handling. It probably prioritises the BBC, Wikipedos and The Guardian to base its judgement on, like some poor souls on this forum.

That's got me thinking. Let's say that those institutions have a disproportionate number of employees with an unhealthy interest in children. We know that they publish much disinformation. Ergo, the reason for publishing misinformation would be an unhealthy interest in children.

 

[Ghost1951]

I asked it to assess your contribution to the site. In ten seconds, it returned this - bear in mind, it is dealing with thousands of requests at the same time -

The Pedelecs.co.uk forum member **Saneagle** has made significant contributions to the community, particularly in the areas of eBike building, technical troubleshooting, and sharing practical advice from personal experience.

Saneagle is known for detailed and thoughtful posts, often helping other members with complex issues, such as diagnosing motor problems, recommending reliable components, and providing step-by-step guidance for eBike conversions. For example, they have shared in-depth advice on motor repairs, explaining the intricacies of handling hall sensors and planetary gears, which are critical for DIY eBike builders.

Additionally, Saneagle has been a consistent contributor for many years, engaging actively in discussions and offering insights that reflect a deep understanding of eBike mechanics. Their input is well-regarded by other members, as evidenced by the numerous reactions and feedback to their posts.

Overall, Saneagle's contributions are highly valued within the Pedelecs.co.uk community, particularly for those looking to build or maintain their own electric bikes.

 

[Joel]

Fun discussion, I just use ChatGPT to give me an overview and highlight obvious things I may have missed (so I can focus my questions on the key information).

If we could return to my question if possible (thanks for the info on the different displays):
Can I just buy the cheapest controller or are there some slow response (/other issue) KT controllers I should avoid.

 

[saneagle]

I asked it to assess your contribution to the site. In ten seconds, it returned this - bear in mind, it is dealing with thousands of requests at the same time -

The Pedelecs.co.uk forum member **Saneagle** has made significant contributions to the community, particularly in the areas of eBike building, technical troubleshooting, and sharing practical advice from personal experience.

Saneagle is known for detailed and thoughtful posts, often helping other members with complex issues, such as diagnosing motor problems, recommending reliable components, and providing step-by-step guidance for eBike conversions. For example, they have shared in-depth advice on motor repairs, explaining the intricacies of handling hall sensors and planetary gears, which are critical for DIY eBike builders.

Additionally, Saneagle has been a consistent contributor for many years, engaging actively in discussions and offering insights that reflect a deep understanding of eBike mechanics. Their input is well-regarded by other members, as evidenced by the numerous reactions and feedback to their posts.

Overall, Saneagle's contributions are highly valued within the Pedelecs.co.uk community, particularly for those looking to build or maintain their own electric bikes.

Crikey! My head has swollen so much that I'll have to sleep in the living room because it no longer fits through the door to the bedroom. Interesting that it says I've made many years of contributions without mentioning my previous lives before I became a ghost.

 

[Ghost1951]

Crikey! My head has swollen so much that I'll have to sleep in the living room because it no longer fits through the door to the bedroom. Interesting that it says I've made many years of contributions without mentioning my previous lives before I became a ghost.

Well, i asked it about your current moniker, so it would be asking a lot for it to pick up on prevous 'disguises'. I reckon that by asking the right question, it could ferret out the right information.

 

[saneagle]

Well, i asked it about your current moniker, so it would be asking a lot for it to pick up on prevous 'disguises'. I reckon that by asking the right question, it could ferret out the right information.

I just realised that I was posting as a person with a body since 2010 before I changed into a ghost. That's where it got the many years from.

 

[saneagle]

Fun discussion, I just use ChatGPT to give me an overview and highlight obvious things I may have missed (so I can focus my questions on the key information).

If we could return to my question if possible (thanks for the info on the different displays):
Can I just buy the cheapest controller or are there some slow response (/other issue) KT controllers I should avoid.

See post #5. You can only hope that someone has specific knowledge of some other controller that solves your problem.