panasonic-flyer for dummies

[qeeeme]

how does a panasonic motor works? (or where is it explained in the forum, sorry i didnt find it yet)

this panasonic motor is to be found on flyer and raleigh and kalkhof

in flyer they spek about frequency (cadence) of 70 or 85 (sport motor)

so i can imagine that somehow my frequency of pedalling is registered and than is registered too the torque i apply

and then i have to choose the mode between 3 modes (low, middle , maximum) but those will be similar, only difference on how much assistance is given

- so lets imagine i put my mode on maximum and i start on a flat land.

- i start on a flat land, with mode maximum and with gear 4 (as an example gear 4 from 8) and let say i put my weight on the pedal (or the corresponding torque). the panasonic unit detects that and will give a certain motor power and it will help me drive the chain and i feel it and the bike starts.

then what happens? let say i stay on the gear 4 (to understand) and on a flat road. if i apply a highest torque to accelerate than the motor register it and helps, provides assistance. if i improve the "cadence" (or frequency? what is the right english word?) on pedalling than the motor is less and less assisting until i reach the maximum "cadence" of 70 or 85 where the motor doesnt assist more?

- depending on the gear i choose and on the road i have i apply a certain "cadence" and a certain torque. how does panasonic reacts to that? how can one imagine the unit function?

- i think of several images of driving :
1. i have a constant speed, torque and cadence on a flat road. is panasonic assisting? with a hub motor i choose the assistance with the throttle.
2. i apply a highest torque because i am starting or going on a hill or changing the gear, then panasonic assists. until when?

when my cadence reach the limit there is no more assistance

 

[flecc]

You've basically got the operation right, it is cadence limited, but the amount of your contribution is measured within it's operation range and matched with the percentage of assistance that you've chosen. For a detailed description, look on the Technical section of my website and you'll find the operation description on the repairs page together with the detail on the pedelec sensor, with all the components fully illustrated.

Panasonic Motor Unit

It does assist at all times when within the operating cadence range, but the unit is so free running that the motor can be omitted by switching off at the handlebar, since the bike rolls like any ordinary bike. Thus it's the same as having a throttle shut off then. If only a small contribution is wanted, choosing Eco mode only gives 50% of your input as assistance, which on the flat at 12 to 15 mph is a negligible amount.
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[qeeeme]

thanx again for this forum and the lot of informations in it. it helped me a lot. I read too that it is very difficult to find information on the flyers maybe because the company is not giving so much on internet. so i am happy to hear that because without you it was almost impossible for me to find informations except advertising or speaking with sellers trying only to trigger my buying of their products

i still try to understand better the motors in the middle

the panasonic motor is assisting me because it is rotating a sprocket which is connected with my chain. it is like a tandem

ideal would be that the sprocket is rotating as i want. but this is not the case. it is rotating as the cpu is driving it. because it is programmed in a certain way

will we some day be able to program such units as we want? maybe but it is a long way to this future maybe

so what i am trying to understand today is how more or less this is programmed

1. beside of panasonic who is offering such system today?

- are they many panasonic motors? what are the differences?
- for example i see with flyer:"sport" motor for 85 cadence, apart of this one all other are similar? and for kalkhoff or raleigh it is the same motor? all with battery 26 V?

2. apparently the cpu gets the information on speed:
through the hall sensor which is getting the chain speed
now this is a chain speed , how do they deduce the bike speed? putting a maximum of ratio knowing which gear system is mounted? or chain speed is enough?

3. in the flyer advertising they speak about a torque sensor. so anyhow this information is guiven to the cpu

okay then it is like that:

- the cpu gets the information:
- speed of the bike (how? or speed of the chain enough?)
- cadence (?) because the cpu is programmed to cut at 70 or 85 (motor sport), or no cadence information? the cut at 70 or 85 cadence is maybe just the result of something else. of what then?
- torque applied


then the cpu is so programmed that at s, c, T given a certain current is given to the motor and then it produces a certain speed and torque

why are this limitations in assistance at 85 cadence? but maybe i think too much, maybe i will never reach such cadence so it is far enough for me

this questions are due to the information read about someone not happy with flyer T8HS due to "too much torque given and then pain on knees". in this case this bike is not interesting for me

because i try to see what is healthy. as far as i understand, when cycling when i want to go faster there are 2 options, either improve the cadence or improve the torque and maybe panasonic is so designed that only one direction is possible

 

[flecc]

Yes, the maximum assisted road speed is set by the bike's gearing. Changing the rear sprocket will change that.

The low cadence for power is set by the design. Apart from the switched power levels under the rider's control, there are three internally controlled power levels which reduce as the cadence rises. They can be supplied to manufacturers with small differences in this, but the basic principle is always that a slow cadence is read as the rider needing help, a fast cadence is read as the rider getting on ok without help needed.

That does not always suit keen cyclists, but Panasonic probably don't see electric bike buyers as being that.
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[qeeeme]

The low cadence for power is set by the design. Apart from the switched power levels under the rider's control, there are three internally controlled power levels which reduce as the cadence rises. They can be supplied to manufacturers with small differences in this, but the basic principle is always that a slow cadence is read as the rider needing help, a fast cadence is read as the rider getting on ok without help needed.
That does not always suit keen cyclists, but Panasonic probably don't see electric bike buyers as being that.
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thanx a lot flecc i tried for months to get such informations, now you are giving me this in minutes.

i remember now having been in a bike shop and reading a kalkhoff agattu notice and there there was a curve on power given by the biker and the panasonic unit with something like power of the unit increasing linearly between 0 and 15 km/h and then decreasing from 15 to 25 km/h . now, knowing that there are differnt level of power internally i understand it better.

 

[qeeeme]

there are three internally controlled power levels which reduce as the cadence rises. They can be supplied to manufacturers with small differences in this, but the basic principle is always that a slow cadence is read as the rider needing help, a fast cadence is read as the rider getting on ok without help needed.
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i saw a curve on the notice of use of kalkhof agattu:

speed vs electrical power from panasonic

-0-x (let say x = 6km/h i guess): at 0 a high power, then decreasing to x km/h. so for me it means the system gives a big input at the start at 0.

- x to 15 km/h: the power rises to a peak

- 15 km/h to 25 km/h: the power falls from this peak (at 15 km/h) to reach zero power at 25 km/h

all this segments are linear (lines, not curves)

so is that what you mean with 3 power levels?

whatever, i understand so far:

1. panasonic unit reads the chain speed (through hall sensor at the motor) so they really get the cadence. the speed is an interpolation knowing the gears ratio maximum etc

2. the programm software cpu is like that:

- from zero to x ( a low cadence or speed): big power is given, assisting the torque exerced by the driver

- from x (let say cadence to make 6km/H) to x1 (let say cadence of 40?). it assists proportionally to the torque i exerce (let say 1:1 if i switched this manually as an example)

- from x1 to x2: it starts to decrease slowly the ratio of the proportion to the torque i give (!!!) i mean it is like manually i have switched 1;1 but from now on, at this x2 highest cadence (let say 40) it will no longer nbe 1:1 but 1:0,9 then 1:0,8 then 1:0,7 etc

- is there another from x2 to x3 and x3 to x4?

is that what switch levels are? or something similar?

the problem being for me with 42 years that i dont know if i am a keen biker or not or keen biker in spe etc. my goal would be maybe with a computer for cadence and torque to know more about myself, my art of biking, the cadence i reach, the torque i need. and ideally to this knowledge would be that i can compare it to what flyer or raleigh or kalkhoff etc opffers. so ideally would be to have data on the systems to compare. but it may bre a long way but it should come in the future. meanwhile, thanx to your work and help we are a step forward thank you

 

[flecc]

That is how I understand it, and I think the rider switched levels of 0.5, 1, and 1.3 to 1 are the start point from which the internal cadence set levels work. In other words, the rider sets the overriding master level which is then scaled during the cadence progression.

In practice, because the assistance is not very powerful, the internal steps in power are not felt when riding, so it's not possible to compare the theoretical description with the experience when riding. The changes are too subtle, and the only detectable thing is the way the power falls with increasing cadence until it's no longer apparent.

When you aren't sure of how you might relate to this sort of system, it's best to have a test ride on a bike using it. Perhaps you can locate a dealer who will let you try one out, either a new one or perhaps a second hand Lafree or BikeTech model.
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