OK.....I am swallowing my disappointment.....

[funkylyn]

To say well done to Red Bull on getting the constructors championship.

Milton Keynes rules

Some good racing today, including between Webber and Hamilton.....thank god Lewis held him off
Next race maybe it will be a win for Lewis......
Alonso was hilarious saying ' I give up'.....yeah right.....at least he still had time to joke


However I keep the faith......Lewis for champion next year.....I cant be accused of not being loyal

Lynda

 

[flecc]

In my view Lewis hasn't been World Champion yet. When given the title it was by one point, but Felipe Massa who he pipped then had twice that season been hopelessly let down by his pit crew. On one of those occasions they cost him the win right at the end of the race by sending him away with fuel hose still locked on.

Felipe was by far the best achieving driver that year, one reason why I'm so opposed to pitstop racing. These races are only about 200 miles and cars should leave the start line with tyres and fuel for that. The only stop that should ever be permitted is for wet or dry tyres.

Allowing pit crews to determine who is the best driver is wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[funkylyn]

In my view Lewis hasn't been World Champion yet. When given the title it was by one point, but Felipe Massa who he pipped then had twice that season been hopelessly let down by his pit crew. On one of those occasions they cost him the win right at the end of the race by sending him away with fuel hose still locked on.

Felipe was by far the best achieving driver that year, one reason why I'm so opposed to pitstop racing. These races are only about 200 miles and cars should leave the start line with tyres and fuel for that. The only stop that should ever be permitted is for wet or dry tyres.

Allowing pit crews to determine who is the best driver is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Hmmmm.....
Think we had better agree to disagree Flecc

Lynda

 

[flecc]

Hmmmm.....
Think we had better agree to disagree Flecc

Lynda

Well, I think motor racing is about cars and drivers, and that's why we have a drivers championship and a constructors championship.

There's no pit crew championship, illustrating why they shouldn't be influencing results as they so often do.

Nor is there a tactics championship, but having pit stops enables the race tactics of the team management to fix the result.

And there's no safety car championship either, but safety car appearances have completely upset race results many times.

That's two legitimate components of the actual racing and three illegitimate ones deciding results.

These and the excess of rules are what's ruined F1 racing for me. Thank goodness for Moto GP where it's the bikes and riders almost entirely deciding the race results.

 

[funkylyn]

I agree with you about the excess of rules, Flecc.........and also the often blatant favouritism shown towards Ferrari at times.....
I dont like the fact that in F1 its money that talks........but of course...... thats the name of the game...

Its very different racing these days to earlier years.....the cars are very different.....much more technical and faster.....but thank god the safety aspect is much much better too.

I think you are over simplifying it Flecc.....I think pit stops, tactics, tyre choice, weather and the ubiquitous safety car are what add to the overall drama and excitement of modern day Formula 1.

They all race these days as a complete team......designers, management, mechanics, pit stop personnel etc etc as well as the drivers and cars.

And after many years.....I still LOVE it......even though I scream in frustration sometimes

Lynda

 

[flecc]

I think pit stops, tactics, tyre choice, weather and the ubiquitous safety car are what add to the overall drama and excitement of modern day Formula 1.

They all race these days as a complete team......designers, management, mechanics, pit stop personnel etc etc as well as the drivers and cars.

That's exactly it Lynda, and I fully understand those who like it. It's like Disneyworld in a sense, all about spectacle. The trouble is the way in which it detracts from what the driver and car can do.

An example of the artificiality that I've just seen as I'm (sort of) watching the race. Bruno Senna passed Kobayashi on good skill alone, only to have Kobayashi open the DRS on the following straight and sail back past. That made Senna's skill pointless, defeated by a device.

I don't see the excitement myself. After the initial swap from the start of Hamilton for Vettel, we had a 14 lap procession with all the excitement of my former 14 mile daily commute into Central London. Then the pit stop performances and tactics reshuffled things. Then the inevitable safety car crawl. Yawn.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I reckon it's all fixed. How Lewis was prevented from winning the championship in his first year. How he won it in the last race the next year? I'm sure that those controlling F1 make sure that the right nationalities win to spread it round where they can optimise their till receipts.

 

[funkylyn]

I reckon it's all fixed. How Lewis was prevented from winning the championship in his first year. How he won it in the last race the next year? I'm sure that those controlling F1 make sure that the right nationalities win to spread it round where they can optimise their till receipts.

Oh I dont know about that d8veh.....what about Schumacher.... first time around ......they certainly werent spreading it around then.....it just got b***** boring.......apart from when he was deliberately running people off the track and getting away with it......then it just got b***** annoying

Lynda

 

[flecc]

I reckon it's all fixed. How Lewis was prevented from winning the championship in his first year. How he won it in the last race the next year? I'm sure that those controlling F1 make sure that the right nationalities win to spread it round where they can optimise their till receipts.

I've been thnking exactly this for at least the last four seasons, the needs of TV spectacle being paramount, but have always been hesitant to say it outright without some firmer proof.

Thanks for having the courage to say it bluntly, at least I'm not alone in the belief.

It was the boredom of Schumacher's winning that probably prompted the fixing Lynda, just as the inevitability of Steve Davis winning every snooker competition prompted them to fix that.
.

 

[funkylyn]

I've been thnking exactly this for at least the last four seasons, the needs of TV spectacle being paramount, but have always been hesitant to say it outright without some firmer proof.

Thanks for having the courage to say it bluntly, at least I'm not alone in the belief.

It was the boredom of Schumacher's winning that probably prompted the fixing Lynda, just as the inevitability of Steve Davis winning every snooker competition prompted them to fix that.
.

NO......sorry....I think that conspiracy theory is total rubbish.......
I do not believe its fixed......absolutely no way....."courage to say it bluntly" ? .....please......we can all have the courage to talk of ridiculous conspiracy theories.......now if you had PROOF.......
but you dont do you....?

Not only that but even talking about it is belittling the effort that EVERY person in every team put in to trying to win every year.........

Perhaps the best advice I can give is....if you both really believe that..... best stick to Moto GP .......much less stressful than thinking about conspiracy theories of fixing F1 races..........and leave it to the people who still really enjoy it

Lynda

 

[flecc]

That's exactly why I hesitare to say this Lynda, such things immediately prompt the accusation of conspiracy theory!

But where is your proof of that?

One thing is certain, the "extras" that I complain of do make it so easy to fix results and hide that fact, something very difficult when it was just the car and the driver.

The media are the great corrupters, prepared to go to extreme lengths for circulation and ratings. But of course that may be just another conspiracy theory and Rupert Murdoch's organisation may be flawlessly innocent of ever being involved in any malpractice.

 

[funkylyn]

As I said before Flecc......best if we just agree to disagree

Lynda

 

[flecc]

I'm happy for us to have opposite points of view Lynda, just found the discussion interesting.

With fixing or doping long known and proven in wrestling, boxing, horse racing, greyhound tracing, snooker, athletics, cycling, cricket, rugby and football, I just wonder why you think it's so unlikely in F1 when the cash in that is among the highest there is?

With no money involved, I think both the world conker and world tiddlywinks championships are still clean though.

 

[funkylyn]

I'm happy for us to have opposite points of view Lynda, just found the discussion interesting.


With no money involved, I think both the world conker and world tiddlywinks championships are still clean though.

Me too Flecc

And dont you believe it.......have you HEARD what they are doing to the conkers ???

Injecting them with liquid lead.....

Tiddlywinks are weighted cleverly.......and all the real money is passed either under the table or around the back of the chestnut trees.......

Lynda

 

[flecc]

You may have something with conkers Lynda, I'd forgotten before, but now I remember how some used to either bake them to harden them or in some cases, soak them in various solutions to toughen them.

It's a dirty world we live in. Thank goodness no-one fits motors to bicycles to make their cycling faster.

 

[funkylyn]

Dirty indeed........I even heard a rumour recently that there was a group of organized people who actually are communicating on an " electric bike forum " about just that very thing.......motors on bikes ......for gods sake.......what is this world coming too........mind you, I have no PROOF at the moment ......but am investigating as we write.....

Lynda

 

[flecc]

Dirty indeed........I even heard a rumour recently that there was a group of organized people who actually are communicating on an " electric bike forum " about just that very thing.......motors on bikes ......for gods sake.......what is this world coming too........mind you, I have no PROOF at the moment ......but am investigating as we write.....

Lynda

The bounders! What despicable cads!

 

[tillson]

These races are only about 200 miles and cars should leave the start line with tyres and fuel for that. The only stop that should ever be permitted is for wet or dry tyres.

You are right but, the cars have become so reliant on aerodynamic grip, that the pit stop phases offer an opportunity to inject a bit of excitement into the race. DRS does offer a fudged solution to the aerodynamic grip issue, but not a very attractive one.

The racing is often more exciting when mechanical grip becomes the dominant factor, such as in wet weather or in MOTO GP where aerodynamic grip is almost non-existent.

It was a shame about Marco Simoncelli being killed in that horrible crash. He was an exciting rider with a lot of potential for future success.

 

[flecc]

Yes, Simoncelli's untimely death was very sad. After a bad patch of crashes with others, he'd cleaned up his act in that respect and showed huge promise for the future.

The F1 aerodynamic issue is relevant to everything I've long been complaining about on FI, the excess of rules including safety obsessions that make cars so identical that processions are the order of the day and artificial devices like DRS and pit stop crew racing become necessary.

F1 lost it's way years ago when it forgot it's brief to improve road cars and became a strangely disconnected thing in isolation. Thus we have idiocies like a ban on ABS etc which road cars have, but huge aerodynamic wings and road hugging, grounding bodywork and tyres deliberately made to fail early which have little relevance to, and no practicality for road vehicles.

Reverse much of that and make the cars more relevant and the excitement creating devices would become unnecessary.

Likewise the silliness on safety. Get rid of the US style safety cars that often create unfair results and use the yellow flags properly again, and stop being over obsessed with driver safety. We don't pay Tesco delivery drivers multi-millions a year, the vast sums F1 drivers earn were intended to reflect the dangers of the sport, dangers which have now been largely been removed to the detriment of the sport. Motor racing is dangerous, and when the danger is removed, racing no longer exists.

Which brings me to the undue influence of TV money and business money in general. This has brought the creation of races in all manner of odd spots around the world where there's often little interest in motor racing, so sparce or non-existent crowds and no trackside atmosphere. Worse still, the races at some of the finest traditional tracks with the best racing has been withdrawn at times or been under threat. Classic examples in this respect are Spa-Francorchamps and Silverstone.

So I won't be keeping F1 company any longer in future until the F1 and FIA authorities come to their senses, and with the current broadcasting changes for next season added to widespread disgruntlement, there will be many other absentees like me.
.

 

[tillson]

I will be joining you in the list of absentees from F1. I have followed the sport as a TV spectator for over 30 years but, it has been losing its appeal for at least the last 10 years and as you point out, the manufactured excitement of DRS, silly tyres and safety cars are bordering on the ridiculous. Alonso once summed it up in a TV interview when he said, "they may as well make the drivers draw straws and those with a short straw have to race on wet weather tyres to make the spectators laugh." Habit causes me to watch F1 now, as opposed to genuine on track action.

The move to Sky next season will give me a good excuse to abandon the F1 habit.