Oh no, 190 miles in and TSDZ2 strange noise

Went out for a 25 mile ride and stopped off at a friend's house and did a gym session and 5 km on the rowing machine and by the time I left it was getting dark and windy.

 

Powered up the big long hill in turbo with no real issues, was making reasonable progress between 12 and 15 mph. This was torque assist, I have not installed the throttle. Stock firmware.

 

Noticed the noise on the flat on top the hill. It was windy so hard to hear much and it was dark. The noise appeared to be when pedalling above the cutoff speed. Could not hear the noise at moderate speed but below the cutoff when the motor was contributing. No unusual noise when coasting either.

 

The noise was like a chirping / scrapping noise. It with distinct chirps at a much higher occurrence than the pedal cadence. It was not totally unlike a brake block touching the rim on an out of true wheel but I think too frequent - and no noise when coasting. I 'think' it was also feeling harder to pedal over the cutoff?

 

Anyway, it was dark so I continued on and suddenly found myself doing 20ish mph and the noise stopped, peddling suddenly felt a bit easier again. Got back and had a quick look and nothing obvious with a torch. The motor is secure, the crank arms are tight. Went out again, just down the road and back and no noise.

 

At first I thought the noise was a bird, it really sounded like a chirp, but too dark for birds.

 

I will take a proper look tomorrow when it is light.

 

I did feel the motor housing when I got home and it was very slightly warmer than ambient temperature but not alarmingly so.

 

Battery was full bars on LCD after a 25 mile ride. The motor probably worked quite hard up the hill, but the cranks were turning at a respectable cadence.

 

It is a bit of a mystery. It was difficult as it was windy (noisy) and dark.

 

I will need to look properly tomorrow when it is light and hopefully less windy.

 

Not thinking very straight, is it the pin bearing in the blue gear that allows you to pedal faster than the motor without also trying to spin the motor by the pedals? My immediate guess is that the blue gear clutch was not disengaged properly - does this sound plausible? If the clutch subsequently disengaged then might account for the sudden increase in speed above the cutoff.

 

C

Edited April 19, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced the blue gear clutch is playing up and not disengaging. I hope this is it, and [mention=6303]Woosh[/mention] can confirm. Sounds like a simple fix and hopefully something I can replace myself without needing to return the motor.

 

I'm sure I'll not be the 1st person with this problem...I have used the bike once in light rain and the motor has deflectors fitted so I think water ingress is very unlikely indeed - if water has got in and rusted the bearings in the 1st week and a half then we have a much bigger problem - this can't be it.

 

Edit: Did 8 miles this morning. Stronger wind. Did a few hills, tried different assist levels from zero to turbo. Was below assist cutoff for some time due to headwinds. Other sections I was able to peddle well over 20mph. Nada, sounds like the chain could do with oiling and front wheel bearings are not great and tools and mudguards make a racket on bumpy rural roads, but nothing unexpected or like last night.

 

C

Edited April 19, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

[mention=6303]Woosh[/mention], would be interested if the symptoms sound familiar to you? Given I can't yet reproduce the noise I will see what happens. Won't be going far today, caving hut and pub, may do a proper ride tomorrow...

 

C

Motor noises without other symptoms like crank slipping is difficult to diagnose.

It's possible that the blue gear is damaged on your motor but the symptom of a blue gear failure is that you clearly lose traction on throttle or you can hear the ratchetting noise from the blue gear when accelerating.

My suggestion is to plug in the throttle and record a video clip when riding on throttle and send a link to Andy@wooshbikes.co.uk - he is a lot more experienced than me. You don't need the brake sensors for testing.

It's not the typical blue gear ratcheting noise as it skips teeth for sure. And no loss of drive either. Likewise the crank sprag clutch isn't slipping either - did the hold breaks and push pedals test. It's not the crank arms and is not the casing moving.

 

As it's not making noises now it's almost impossible to diagnose.

 

And it is possible it wasn't the motor at all, it was very dark and windy (noisy). I think I will need to wait to see if it happens again.

Do you have mudguards? If so I'd check they're central and there is adequate distance from the tyres all the way around, as I often have to adjust mine (front) which become displaced progressively with use, because I haven't bothered to clean oil off the mudguard supporting wire struts and inserts, which means they tend to slip no matter how much I tighten, causing chirping at high frequency at higher speeds. Wind could displace them while windy? But of course it could be something else.

Edited April 19, 20233 yr by guerney

And it is possible it wasn't the motor at all, it was very dark and windy (noisy). I think I will need to wait to see if it happens again.

do keep a ear out for this.

Do you have mudguards?

I do and a newly added piece of damp course flap, might have found a weird resonant frequency in the wind - if I'd had your lights I would have been able to see

If it's a noise above the cut-off speed that is likely a high cadence gear so more flexing at the bottom bracket as you cycle faster. So maybe the frame is flexing more and the chainring is flexing more to the sides and the chainline is getting more distorted. For commercial mid-drive ebikes they have dedicated mounting areas for the mid-drive motor but for kits you are using an existing bottom bracket never designed for a mid-drive motor. Some people also fit mid-drive motors to relatively weak lightweight frames with more flexing. Also motors can be difficult to secure sometimes and people haven't followed the correct mounting procedure entirely which I think is shown in this video.

 

Did another '26' miles tonight that I think was closer to 22 but that is a topic for a different thread. Noise was back intermittently but only very briefly.

 

I changed my dangerously shitty brake pads yesterday and got them all aligned nicely and made sure nothing was rubbing. Changed rear tyre as well as was on a nobly at the back.

 

Mudguards are very stiff and well supported - good solid German engineering. Anyway noise came back a couple of times but not for very long. It was very windy again but it happened in sheltered spots so easier to hear. The closest I can think of is the noise when the chain rubs the front derailleur, which would be an obvious place to look if I hadn't just removed the front derailleur...

 

The chain is new but the rear cassette is knackered really. I put a cheapo Halfords chain on when I fitted the kit as that was all I could get that day.

 

I will be replacing the cassette but thought I would hold off and try the kit to see what cassette I needed. I'm not convinced it's either the chain or cassette but will order a new cassette and now have a good quality chain I will fit at the same time.

 

I heard it 3 times, twice on flattish areas doing between 16.5 mph and 17.5 mph - both over cut-off. On the flat sections, at least one of the times I was only pedaling lightly as slight descent. Once going up a big hill at 12mph using speed assist. I am coming to the conclusion it is not the motor. Will get the new cassette and chain fitted and then see. As I am going up cassette size I may fit a new rear derailleur as well (was going to try a cheapo extender but ithink I'll just buy a derailleur with the current capacity to start with.

Edited April 20, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

How long does the squeak last on average?

A couple of mins at a time but not really enough time to get phone out and record. One slim possibility is flex / movement causing the big gear housing to push into the chainstay and then rub the big gear. That's an awful lot of flex though as there is a couple of mm gap normally. Unlikely as it would likely start and stop with each crank revolution and it doesn't. Also, not allways when mashing the pedals.

This sounds similar to what I experienced last summer. During a country lane ride, I thought to myself how loud the birds were, chirping away constantly, and weirdly silent when freewheeling

Turned out my chain was bone dry after a long tour in Europe a few weeks before. I'd be using dry lube for the tour and there wasn't a smidge of it left on the chain

Your chain might be well lubed up, but thought worth mentioning in case it is something as simple as that

This sounds similar to what I experienced last summer. During a country lane ride, I thought to myself how loud the birds were, chirping away constantly, and weirdly silent when freewheeling

Turned out my chain was bone dry after a long tour in Europe a few weeks before. I'd be using dry lube for the tour and there wasn't a smidge of it left on the chain

Your chain might be well lubed up, but thought worth mentioning in case it is something as simple as that

You got me looking at basics and I think the culprit might have been the chain as you suggested. It was well lubricated, had made sure after hearing original noise. Had only done 200 miles on the chain. I had already bought a KMC chain as was using a Halfords cheapo as needed a chain in a hurry - expected a cheapo chain to last more than 200 miles of summer cycling. Lesson learnt, don't buy cheap chains...I will do a proper test ride tonight weather permitting.

Edited April 21, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

Is the sound a click or a squeak? Does it sound metallic or plastic? Is it in step with pedalling?

A couple of mins at a time but not really enough time to get phone out and record.

 

It's bizarre that not all phones have audio file recording facility built-in (my OnePlus does , it also automatically records all calls SIP & SIM [illegal in the UK without prior consent - there's no consent opt-in or out on my phone lol]), but there are third party apps for that (some of which even work, despite protections at operating system level for phone microphones) - you could record audio of the entire duration of your ride, then transfer to PC to eq etc. isolating the noise using something like Audacity (free), to upload to Youtube.

Edited April 21, 20233 yr by guerney

Ok, so I think there are a couple of things going on here. The crappy chain wasn't helping but underlying that there is a very intermittent noise that IS definitely linked to crank rotation (originally I didn't think it was) - it is usually proceeded with a continuous noise ( that I didn't manage to record) that sounds a bit like broken spokes but very quiet (I have no broken spokes). The noise kicks in on the start of the downwards push on the right pedal. I completely failed the 1st time to record as my phone was in my pocket and lots of clothes related noises. 2nd attempt wasn't great either, I have attached a clip but annoyingly it was also when the motor was working quite hard on a steep uphill section. More often the noise is above the cut-off. Anyway, it is very hard to make out over the other noises (road, tools and bags banging about, cars, Google maps). At about 20 to 30 seconds that rubbing noise every turn of the crank is I think very odd. As I say, it comes and goes, usually around 16 to 17mph (although in this case maybe 12mph). Often I am pedelling quite hard but sometimes not, there is not an obvious pattern. There isn't much flex that I can see in anything. Motor and crank arms are tight.

 

Tbh, the noise really isn't very clear on the recording. I will have to try again. I do have a new cassette on the way so hopefully that can be ruled out.

 

My theory though is lateral play in the crank maybe combined with a bit of bearing slop. As I understand it the TS is prone to rubbing and eventually destroys itself. I did mention the lateral play to Andy in an email soon after I installed the kit.

 

Dang, can't upload .mp3 or wav files as attachments, ok will take a bit more time...guessing I need to upload the file and share a link....

 

...I'm pleased I bought from the UK because if there is rubbing then it will likely crap out in the next 12 months. I have done 300 miles so far but I'm sure it will be less in the winter months.

Edited April 22, 20233 yr by Bogmonster666

There is a bit of lateral play in the crank due to the design of the TSDZ2. It's because the horizontal movement is limited by 2 simple circlips. It seems bad to any bike mechanic but doesn't get worse. I would ignore it, some add a 1mm shim to make it less annoying. A shim does not eliminate the play completely though.

I'm going to ignore it for a bit. The cassette will take a week or so to arrive. I am enjoying the kit though I've cycled ~75 miles in the last 24 hours and I found it tough as I am not cycling fit - but that is kind of the point. I could have had more of an electric moped feel but I would not get the exercise I want. I could have persevered with a non-ebike but I dislike cycling (particularly up killer hills) that I would get disheartened and not travel far enough and give up. Where I live, on top of a big hill, you can't cycle far without coming off the hill. I hope this kit will give me enough exercise and allow me to travel far and fast enough that it holds my attention. I have enjoyed exploring some of the country roads around here I would not otherwise travel. The Medips and Somerset levels are not the nicest place on earth, but they are not bad either. I am fortunate to live in a nice place.

One can inprove the crank latteral play by installing an extra sealed bearing on each side.

On the LHS pluck out the rubber seal and there is enough room for another bearing for support and refit the seal. On the RHS remove the spider seal and fit a sealed bearing in place of it (may need a it of locktite if a sloppy fit), then adhere a flat 1 or 2mm penny washer type neoprene seal over the bearing face.

Use 6902 2rs or 6902 - llu- max .

I think I may give this a try. I'm convinced this is where the problem lies and it is clearly a known bug-bear. The bearings are cheap and easy to source, page 308 of the notorious ES thread gives details of the bearings and the varieties most likely to keep water out.

 

Did you find the dust seals were easy enough to get out without destroying them?

The bearings are cheap and easy to source,

 

Quite a difference in price though : From a UK site picked by Google, i.e. I have not used it so info only. https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1&keywords=69022RS&

 

Dust seals come out easy with no damage, the RHS will be excess to requirements so keep as a spare. Use pointy tweezers or a needle to tease the LHS side out if need be.

Ok, I'm struggling to ignore the noise which I think is getting worse. I also think the amount of play in the chainring is increasing. No circlip pliers to hand so difficult to see what may be happening behind but have taken off the spider and gear housing case.

 

There appears to be a LOT of play in the sprag clutch bearing - is this normal? https://file.io/YRV5XOtXQtT3

 

There is a bit of play on the main shaft but the bulk of the play is the big bearing. I tend to think it is completely knackered. I first noticed the noise at 190 miles and at 330 miles it is getting worse and the chainring has more movement. [mention=6303]Woosh[/mention], if this is not normal, I understand the bearing needs to be pressed out and a new one pressed in.

 

Keen not to let it continue until something more significant breaks, like damage to the teath or the TS or something.

 

Edit: have tracked down some circlip pliers so I'll take off the big cog and see if there is some other part that is grinding away. With the amount of play it is quite conceivable the big gear is touching the housing under pedal load. Alternatively, a couple of degrees twist gets amplified at the far end of the chain. Either way, it's not ideal.

Edited April 25, 20232 yr by Bogmonster666

This has never happened before in a nearly brand new motor. If you want to send the motor to Andy so he can have a look at it, please email support@wooshbikes.co.uk

A short video clip to illustrate the issue is most welcome.