non sensical uk e bike law

[minexplorer]

Im a common sense man and theres nothing that peaks me more, than idiotic regulations on our lives. Im not arguing against the 15.5mph law on E bikes.As stupid as that seems ,considering an unassisted cyclist can reach 25mph.I get that its about differentiating bikes from mo-peds. I WANT to cycle,an theres no way im going up a hill at 15mph.So i will still be getting the assistance i want on hills.
My point is MOTOR POWER. Surely the only thing the law makers should concern themselves with is this top speed thing.Not how powerfully the motor can help you to that speed. For example 2 cars are both travelling at 80mph. one has a 1 liter engine,being worked hard.the other has a 2 liter engine,which is hardly breaking sweat. Motor A is 250W, the controller factory amp setting gives power X. This AMP setting can be raised by the user, to give more oomph, at the risk of damaging the motor. But motor B is 350W or 500W. The controllers factory AMP setting is higher.Giving that extra oomph for the hills,without any taxing of the motor. The law can still stay at 15.5mph. Its a no brainer to my mind,whats wrong with them.More importantly why are the E bike community/organisations not getting this point to those that create these silly restrictions. Im interested in others thoughts.

 

[flecc]

My point is MOTOR POWER. Surely the only thing the law makers should concern themselves with is this top speed thing.

Many of us feel the same and have often posted as such, and the European Parliament a couple of years ago asked the EU Commission to consider removal of any power limit, leaving only assist speed in control. Sadly the Commission felt that went too far and turned down the proposal.

The car comparison you make is however invalid. Car drivers are tested for competence, pedelec riders are not. Cars are number plate traceable and controllable, pedelecs are not. Cars are tested to be fit for the road as they age, pedelecs are not. Car drivers can be banned from the road, pedelec riders can't be.

You can see where this could lead, getting a more liberal regime but with very much more bureacracy, control and cost. We really don't want registration, number plates and MOTs.
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[mike killay]

I think that the truth is that politicians do not understand electric motors.
Possibly they do not understand the import of 'Continuous'
What they like is fixed limits. 30mph, 80 millilitres of alcohol, 12 foot pound air rifles etc.
You are quite right and not the first person to point out that the wattage is irrelevant if there is a 15mph speed limit built into the machine.

 

[Danidl]

Im a common sense man and theres nothing that peaks me more, than idiotic regulations on our lives. Im not arguing against the 15.5mph law on E bikes.As stupid as that seems ,considering an unassisted cyclist can reach 25mph.I get that its about differentiating bikes from mo-peds. I WANT to cycle,an theres no way im going up a hill at 15mph.So i will still be getting the assistance i want on hills.
My point is MOTOR POWER. Surely the only thing the law makers should concern themselves with is this top speed thing.Not how powerfully the motor can help you to that speed. For example 2 cars are both travelling at 80mph. one has a 1 liter engine,being worked hard.the other has a 2 liter engine,which is hardly breaking sweat. Motor A is 250W, the controller factory amp setting gives power X. This AMP setting can be raised by the user, to give more oomph, at the risk of damaging the motor. But motor B is 350W or 500W. The controllers factory AMP setting is higher.Giving that extra oomph for the hills,without any taxing of the motor. The law can still stay at 15.5mph. Its a no brainer to my mind,whats wrong with them.More importantly why are the E bike community/organisations not getting this point to those that create these silly restrictions. Im interested in others thoughts.

That topic has been long explored in this forum. Basically it is not a silly restriction. It is a restriction.
If there was no restriction on power output from the motor, would you not think that there would be plenty of people, including members of this forum who would be gadding about at 80mph. Or accelerating to 15 mph in 0.1 second on public roads and using secret switches to confuse the police.
So you probably agree that there should be some limitation on motor power.

As it is the law insists that the electric motor be capable of producing 250w of mechanical power indefinitely, it can consume whatever amount of electrical power it needs. The law also allows it to exceed the 250w for limited periods, defined in the testing standards . Instantaneous power consumption can legally exceed 700w , while still remaining inside the envelope. It is the responsibility of the designer manufacturer, import agent to certify that their product conforms, by testing themselves or having testing certified, and then putting the CE mark that they are within this envelope.
The ebikes currently restricted to power assistance up to 15.5mph are engineered to be safe at low to moderate speeds, and that is why they are exempted from the more rigourus requirements on faster more powerful ebikes.. Your complaint might better be directed as to why the UK government has not bothered to legislate for the next category of s pedelecs.

 

[Trevormonty]

The whole idea of pedelec is allow them to use bicycle facilities and be treated as bike. 250w is more than enough to do this.

If you want to climb at 15mph+ get motorbike.

 

[flecc]

So you probably agree that there should be some limitation on motor power.

There is a case for some more power though, to give greater hill climbing ability. The next class up, L1e-A, is also for bicycle based machines with the 15.5 mph restriction, but permitted 1000 watts rating. In many EU countries they are free or fairly free of regulation, but in the UK we characteristically go totally over the top with regulating those. That is:

Type approval, registration, number plate, third party insurance, motor cycle crash helmet compulsory, MOTs, all for what is still a very low powered bicycle. E-mopeds, which don't perform particularly well compared with their i.c. cousins, typically have over 4kW to carry a person up hills, so just 1 kW is hardly overkill.
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[Deleted member 4366]

In practice, there is no power regulation in the standard. What constitutes a 250w motor isn't tied down, so, basically, you can use any power you want.

It's not true that 250w motors will get damaged if you run them with higher power. Your average one might run with 14 amps, but there's others (250w motors) that run with 25, 28 and 33 amps. That's more than enough power for what you need on a bicycle.

When Bosch motors first started, they were running with about 15 amps, but since then they've been gradually increasing it to about 20 amps. I'm sure Shimano, Yamaha and Brose are doing the same.

In many cases, the 250w motors have several variants: 24v, 36v and 48v. The 48v one is virtually the same as the 24v one, but it runs with double the power.

If you need a motor for climbing, there's plenty of 250w ones that can climb very steep hills. You just have to choose the right one. Unfortunately OEM bike designers don't seem to have got a handle on that.

 

[TedG]

We really don't want registration, number plates and MOTs.
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Neither do we over here but the way things are going it is looking bleak. Beware in that other part of the UK, you could get lumbered with our nightmare.

 

[LeighPing]

Neither do we over here but the way things are going it is looking bleak. Beware in that other part of the UK, you could get lumbered with our nightmare.

If they legislate as quickly as they do over there, it's not likely to happen anytime soon.

 

[minexplorer]

interesting ,d8veh.i thought if a 250w motor drew too many amps from say a 36volt. ie; very hilly areas. so it was exceeding the 'continuous' rating for considerable time it would eventually be burnt out. why are motors of higher wattage made if they add nothing tho. surely they do something better.i thought more power (not speed unless user altered of course)with less strain on the motor.or the knees of those of us with a bit of arthritis.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

interesting ,d8veh.i thought if a 250w motor drew too many amps from say a 36volt. ie; very hilly areas. so it was exceeding the 'continuous' rating for considerable time it would eventually be burnt out. why are motors of higher wattage made if they add nothing tho. surely they do something better.i thought more power (not speed unless user altered of course)with less strain on the motor.or the knees of those of us with a bit of arthritis.

No. There's a key word there: the "rating" of the motor. The rated power is given by the manufacturer. It can't be changed in any way by the user. It's normally stamped or labelled on the motor. The writing doesn't mysteriously change from 250w to 500w when you stick a bigger controller in or change the battery.

Motor manufacturers would normally get a sales advantage the higher the power rating of their motors, so all the rating tests are desgned to stop them from over-rating them. There's nothing to stop anybody from under-rating a motor. There was never a need for it before. This is the only case I can think of where anybody would want to do it.

Many e-bike motors are under-rated (IMHO), so there's plenty of room to increase power. Any motor can burn if you don't use it correctly. Low speed is mainly where the danger is. Sometimes, increasing the current would make a motor run more efficiently and cooler.

 

[mike killay]

why are motors of higher wattage made if they add nothing tho. QUOTE]
I suppose that it is like a chain manufacturer.
He certifies that his chain has a safe working load of 1 Ton, but knows full well that it won't break until 2.5 Tons are applied.