NL/DK/DE cycling culture and "image" of various machines?

[Alex728]

I think its been briefly hinted at on thie forum but I remember it being mentioned that one reason the traditional 700c wheeled utility bike (such as a Kahlkoff) was popular in the Scandinavian/Teutonic nations was as much an image thing as its practicality..

Although mopeds and scooters are legal and available, subject to less regulatory burden and even permitted on bike paths - the impression I was given by comments on here were that they are viewed as "juveniles" vehicles (age 16-18) and that by the mid 20s someone should have grown out of such a vehicle (though there is less emphasis on owning a car than the UK)

Large motorbikes are associated (rightly or wrongly) with "hard men" involved in drugs or gang activity - perhaps to an even greater extent than the thie prejudice in the UK, as the gangs in those nations are a lot more hardcore and not shy of using firearms or even IEDs to a greater extent than in Britain - something which clearly and understandably unnerves the citizens of these otherwise relatively liberal nations.

But a bicycle (normal or e-bike) is seen as the vehicle of a good upstanding and environmentally aware citizen... especially when purchased from an EU-based company..

How prevalent is this mindset across Europe? interested to hear from the Europeans as well as those British who visit Europe regularly.

 

[flecc]

The two wheel cultures in the Netherlands and Germany are very different from here in the UK without doubt, but the 700c wheel size choice has a different foundation from culture. The Dutch are a famously tall people and the Germans also tend to have a high proportion of tall people, so the 700c bike with a large frame is ideal for those markets, and probably also Scandinavia. Over 6' riders tend to make a 26" wheeled bike look undersized. Example 1, Example 2.

Here in the UK and certainly in much of France and particularly Italy, shorter heights are far more common, so the 26" wheel has been favoured as it has in the Far East for the same reason.

I know very little about the attitudes to scooters/mopeds and motorcycles in Europe, but in the UK we did have a sound history of adult use of scooters in the 1950s and '60s and in city areas like London they aren't only seen as teen transport now. I don't think there's a specific view on motorbike users in the UK either, the "Hells Angels" associated types being too much a minority against the many sport, commuting and courier riders to have an effect.
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[Alex728]

I don't think there's a specific view on motorbike users in the UK either, the "Hells Angels" associated types being too much a minority against the many sport, commuting and courier riders to have an effect.
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I get the impression that In Britain biker gangs are seen as a rather rare and bizzare phenomenon amongst mostly middle aged men and in that age group a comparative minority compared to footy hooligans, bigger drug dealers, armed robbers, serial burglars and domestic bullies..

I've got many friends and colleagues with family across the North Sea, as well as frequenting a youth lifestyle forum where a few Danish people are.

These are as you expect mostly free thinking liberal minded people - but they all gave me the distinct impression there is more concern over "biker gangs" as they still control the bulk of the drugs trade (compared to Britain where this is much more diverse and multicultural!) and fight hard for territory. I can't remember exactly which Scandinavian country whete this occured, but I do recall a report in the 80s/90s of a small missile similar to the ones now being used by the Taliban being fired into a rival gang's clubhouse!

my Danish friends often berate these gangs for "ruining" Christiana (the hippy bit) with violent drugs turf wars (often against immigrants) and causing the cops/authorities to lock the place down. (on a lighter note, this area is also the source of a distinctive design of utility bike..)

Christianiabikes, Copenhagen Denmark....English version

 

[Erik]

In Denmark the muslim immigrant gangs shoot at Hells Angels, and when innocent bystanders get hit, the left-wing media blame Hells Angels.

 

[Alex728]

Well the stereotypical image of a man involved in "biker gangs" is a perpetually angry man with a belief women should be subordinate, a strong belief in the use of physical force to settle disputes, strong "tribal" loyalties, involvement in drugs trade, a unique form of dress and often a beard, so perhaps the "liberal" media just get confused between them and the fundamentalist Muslims!

Seriously whilst some of what you say is undoubtedly true due to recent worldwide events (and that hashish mostly comes from Muslim countries!), my Danish friends are not youths but in their 40s and were talking also about things deteriorating from nearly 20 years ago. Many of them used to go to places like Christiana and Ungdomshuset but said that they were becoming unsafe, and it started off with rival Danish gangs (not all of whom were bikers, nor immigrants!) fighting one another.

I get the impression in Denmark there is concern over biker gangs, over immigrant gangs, over gangs of right-wing men, gangs of youths, gangs of anarchists. Seems everyone is to blame, and despite people saying life is good in Denmark some parts of it appear to be bitterly divided with fighting and riots regularly happening - more so than in England! Yes, we do get drunken violence and a bit of vandalism and occasionally scuffles between rival groups of men but we have not recently had more determined purposeful rioting where loads of shops/cars/bikes are destroyed - from what I see on the on-line videos sent to me, I would not park a bike in some areas of Denmark as it looks like it would be set on fire for a barricade!

Also as someone who is not of white skin and isn't Muslim but could be "mistaken" for one, I would not feel safe in many areas of Denmark until all this nonsense stops (but I would say the same for some parts of England too). And I expect that it will stop, but at the expense of losing the "interesting" community places, the freedom of movement and public safety authorities becoming more stringent, just as it has happened in England. we had places like Christiana (but on a much smaller scale) in London, but they got took over by drug dealers, there was crime and violence, and the Police closed them all down.

As for the mopeds, I think I found the reason they are less popular, they seem to be limited to much slower speeds than in the UK or many other EU countries. Again it seems this must have occured due to people riding them badly and getting involved in collisions. People seem eternally doomed to abuse their freedom and have it taken away from them...

 

[Alex728]

Here in the UK and certainly in much of France and particularly Italy, shorter heights are far more common, so the 26" wheel has been favoured as it has in the Far East for the same reason.

as a shorter person who rides 700c wheel bikes (which I found to be faster) I hadn't thought of this but I can see why it makes sense for the other end of the height scale. with e-bikes though the mechanical advantage is less of an issue which is why I have gone back to 26" wheeled e-bikes...