Newbie Test Rides - Giant Twist 2.0 and Powacycle Windsor

[Jennykins]

Just been out and about this morning and had a few test rides.

My nearest local bike shop (Apple Bikes in St.Annes) had the Giant Twist 1.0 and 2.0.

They don't normally have the Suede in stock but said they would get one in if I wanted to try it.

First impressions are that its dead solid if a little heavy.

This is the first time I've been on an electric bike, let alone a pedelec only one so I didn't know what to expect.

Wheeee! the drive certainly gives you a push as soon as you start to peddle and you get up to a fast speed really quickly.

The brakes seemed ok but took a little time to stop, probably because I was going at higher speed than I would normally go on a bike.

The spring to front wheel thing felt slightly weird but I'm sure I could get used to it and it didn't stop you turning the front wheel right round in small spaces.

The handlebars felt lovely. Just the right size, nice and cushioned (as was the saddle!) and the gearchange was lovely and smooth.

Looking at the batteries showed that the razor sharp plastic plates that the A to B review mentioned have been replaced by a Giant logo. It was still easier to remove the pannier and then lift the batteries off rather than removing them thru the pannier.

Apparently you can ride with just the one battery if you are just doing short journeys, you just have to counter the weight imbalance with your riding position.

The Pannier is possibly an issue as there is not a lot of room in the sides as they sit over the batteries. You couldn't get a shopping bag in there, maybe a few magazines or a book or two. I might even struggle getting my packed lunch in there.

Final impressions

Positives-
A really solid bike.
Plenty of range with the 2 Nmih batteries (60 miles so the dealer says).
Very comfortable handlebars and saddle.
Local dealer for any problems.

Negatives-
Pedelec only (though this might be OK as I haven't really tried an electric bike over any distance yet, but I'm getting the feeling I would like at least some twist throttle only distance).
Heavy (though countered somewhat by the 2 batteries)
Expensive (both for the bike (£1100) and any spare batteries (£250) but countered a little bit by the fact you already get a second/spare battery in the price so this effectively takes the bike price down to £850).
Not a lot of space in the panniers.

So off up to Bolton to Valley Scooters who are dealers for Powacycles, Powabike and Urban Mover.

Nice little garage like shop where all the customers and staff seemed genuinely enthusiastic and friendly, a good first sign.

Had a go on the Powacycle Windsor.

Seemed smaller than the Giant Twist (and apparently I was trying the small Giant Twist frame) and felt more like a 'normal' bike size.

Slightly less sit up and beg than the Giant, though I think the Windsor handlebars could have been adjusted to come up a little more but I liked the position as it was so didn't ask for this to be done.

Slightly less comfortable than the Giant but only slightly (Where the Giant felt like an armchair the Powacycle felt like a comfy bike). The saddle was slightly smaller and the Handlebars were obviously a step down in quality from the Giant but were still very good for the price.

I had read in the A to B test of the Windsor that they thought the suspension was a bit wobbly but on this bike they felt nice and solid whilst soaking up the bumps and cracks, I mentioned this to the dealer and he said that whoever prepared the bike must not have done a good job on the suspension for the A to B test bike.

The motor was slightly quieter than the Giants and the pedelec option on the Windsor felt virtually the same as the Giants (though I gather the Giants is more sophisticated I can only assume this would show up in a longer ride).

The Twist Throttle only mode was great, once it got going you got up to a nice speed and I can see myself using this for a good proportion of the journey. The Throttle had a reasonable feel, about a quarter of a turn before you felt a real push and the spring on the throttle was fairly weak so you could keep it on without your hand getting tired.

The Windsor felt a lot lighter than the Giant and also felt easier to peddle with the motor off.

Final Impressions

Positives-
Fairly local dealer.
Excellent price for bike (£499).
Nmih batteries cheap (£99) compared to the Giant batteries.
Light weight.
Comfy Ride with suspension.
Plenty of space on the Rack for shopping, lunch etc.

Negatives-
Range, but with my journey (13.5 miles each way) on the flat I may(!) get away with one battery but would probably get 2 just in case (so the cheap batteries help)
Lower spec kit than the Giant, though excellent for the price and I could always upgrade any bits (Handlebars or saddle) if I found I didn't get on with them long term.

So I've decided that the winner for me is the Windsor. Its a great bike for the price and less of a large investment on the off chance things go wrong.

I'll be looking to get it from Valley Scooters on a Cycle to Work scheme (no idea how long these things take to sort out) and they will be in touch with me next week to organise.

Jen.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Newbie test Rides.

Did you get a chance to try either of these two bikes on a hill? (a real hill say 10% or more even).
Lancashire can be a very hilly county. Hills are an Electric Bike's (most of them) bete noir - you have to be fit for your bike to like them.
You're going to have to wait until the CTW scheme is set up - give it another test.
Peter

 

[Jennykins]

Peter,

My journey to work and back is pretty flat (Lancashire coast to Preston) so I'm not too bothered about hills to be honest.

I only have one fairly flat but long hill to negotiate in 13.5 miles and I guess most people probably wouldn't even think it counts as a 'hill'.

Jen.

 

[flecc]

The Powacycle does climb quite well in fact Jen, albeit a little slowly on the steep ones.

I think you've made a sensible choice, since I just don't see the extra moneys worth in the Twist, despite it's quality. Also, the Giant spares and batteries are very expensive, the Powacycle ones the opposite, their battery prices being the best on the market. Even with two batteries you'll still have a light bike at barely over half the price of the Twist.
.

 

[coops]

Nice going, Jen! A very informative review & useful test rides - you'd certainly done your homework, with the AtoB reviews too!

I've not tried a pedelec-only bike, but I also favour a throttle for more control over power level. Good that you tested both bikes ease of pedalling without motor power too, and your findings on that are what I'd have expected. Cheaper & one-third lighter (if 24V vs 36V for the Giant bikes) batteries for the Powacycle is a big plus as you say, and a spare battery, even 2, should be no problem at all to carry in a pannier if you need it.

I'm aware you said you didn't really need a hill-climber, but did you get the chance to test the Giant & Powacycle ability on any moderate/steep slopes? My geography may be out but I'd have thought Bolton (Windsor) hillier than St.Annes (Giant)? You may find reasonable power on hills useful, should you get the ebike "bug" & start using the bike for journeys with steeper gradients than you plan for at the moment .

EDIT: Oops, I see the "hills" question has been dealt with, still my last point may still be of use to you - more "peak" motor power (if you wanted or needed it) would not only let you tackle steeper slopes, but enable faster speed (if needed) up more moderate ones too .

Stuart.

 

[coops]

One more consideration I'd have, given your 13.5mile each way distance to work mentioned in your first thread, Jen, is the top motor assist speed: though the bikes seems fast now, in time you'll likely adjust to it and a few mph difference between some ebikes top speeds (not sure about the Windsor, but some Powacycle bikes phase out power at around 12-13mph) may make a small but significant difference in journey time & convenience .

Some cyclists here who've switched to ebikes find even 15mph seems slow, since they can approach or exceed that without a motor, though of course 15mph is the legal limit for ebikes .

Stuart.

 

[Jennykins]

I know what you mean about speed, which I guess is one reason why I'm happier about the lower initial investment.

I know even a legal/restricted bike that runs at 15mph might be a bit faster than the Windsor but I suspect that it will also be a bit more expensive (especially battery wise if lts Li-ion). I guess the closest bike to this would be the Ezee Liv, which ticks all the boxes apart from weight, but this has gone up to £695 now which is a bit high for me (and its Li-ion)

As regards de-restricted/illegal bikes, theres no way I would want to ride one on public roads. The thought of what the police would do if I was in an accident, even if I didn't cause it, and they discovered the bike was illegal would scare the bejeesus out of me.

Jen.

 

[coops]

If you have any interest in the Liv, Jen, its worth enquiring at 50Cycles if its available with NiMH batteries (which they're starting to get back in) and what the price would be (ought to be best part of £100 less I think, for comparison the Liv was originally £545 with NiMH in March when it was first out, the price seems to have crept up while its been a Lithium only option ).

I think from memory the Liv's weight is a little bit more than the Windsor, and a NiMH battery if available would be 1.5kg or so more than the Lithium its also true, but bear in mind the Ezee batteries have 50% more energy and weight than Powacycles', and the more powerful but older design brushed motor likely also accounts for some of that extra weight too. Its a good looking bike though, and if one battery on the Liv gives enough range for your needs, you'd save £100 on a second Powacycle battery and have less battery security concerns (they're expensive items to replace!) since the single Ezee battery locks into the frame when you remove the key, no worries .

When I was looking for a bike, I jumped on a train to visit 50Cycles Loughborough & had great fun trying lots of Ezee bikes and an Izip too - by good luck I turned up on the day the first Liv consignment arrived . I don't know if they have them yet, but if you're feeling flash you may be tempted by a Sparta Ion: I hear many people like that bike .

 

[frank9755]

I think you've made a decision that you won't regret, Jenny, with the Windsor.

My wife bought one about a month ago. She went for two NiMH batteries. She loves the riding position and comfort of the bike, the lightness of it for when you need to lift it, the fact it looks like a traditional bicycle rather than a mountain bike, the way the pedelec breezes you along gently, plus the ability to use throttle when you need it. Best of all though is that it is virtually silent!

I've borrowed it to go to work a few times. I have a fairly flat 12 mile journey and get home and back no problem on one battery. My wife went for a hilly ride and got about 21 miles range. Overall, she is very pleased with it.

Frank

 

[Jennykins]

Hmm, maybe I should hold off until I've at least tried an Ezee Liv.

I wonder if I could get it as a Nimh version that the range and power would be similair to the Li-ion version?

I guess a trip down to Loughborough is on the cards.

Jen.

 

[coops]

Just a further thought on the weight issue: the stated weights with NiMH are Liv 29.2kg and Windsor 24kg, with 324Wh and 192Wh batteries respectively, bike weights without batteries should then be roughly Liv 23.5kg & Windsor ~20.2kg, i.e. the over 50% higher capacity Ezee NiMH battery accounts for nearly 2kg of the apparent 5kg difference between them.

I say apparent because I've questions over some of the weights given by Powacycle, which I'd appreciate if anyone can answer: firstly the Oxford (now discontinued I think) & Cambridge bikes appear to be almost identical except for a rear rack on the Cambridge, yet the specs say the Cambridge is 2kg heavier (25kg vs 23kg) and 5cm shorter (175cm vs 180cm)! Secondly the current Windsor Li-po option, 26V 10.5Ah (273Wh) is stated to be 22kg, thats 2kg lighter than the NiMH option: I can't see how that weight difference can be attributed only to lighter battery type (and maybe it isn't) since the Lithium polymer battery would then weigh only 2kg, though its possible if the battery is very light I suppose.

So there does appear to be a weight difference, Jen, but how much is hard to say without knowing the information is accurate. Bear in mind that Ezee NiMH are still currently in short supply too, but its still worth enquiring, if your interested .

Stuart.

 

[Jennykins]

Frank, thanks for letting me know your wife likes the Windsor and what ranges you get.

Its still my first choice based on price and weight.

Just feel I may still try to get a test of an Ezee just to see if they are that much better.

It is a lot of hassle to get to Loughborough though and theres still no local dealer which puts me off the Ezees a bit.

Jen.

 

[frank9755]

You should certainly try a Liv. I've not tried one but I imagine you'll find it more powerful but a bit noisier due to the older motor, not quite so good on hills with only 3 gears (but not such an issue for you) and obviously a bit more expensive.

They both seem to be good bikes so it may come down to style; if you want a step-through frame, sit-up and beg type of bike, the Windsor would take some beating, or if you prefer a more unisex frame the Liv could be what you want.

If you do try a Liv please post a review like your previous ones!

Frank

 

[coops]

Frank, I don't suppose you could post the weight of the Windsor, with & without 1 battery could you, just out of interest & for comparison?

The Liv motor, as I recall, was also fairly quiet and has apparently proven highly reliable when used in an earlier bike. There seems little doubt though that the cost for a bit more power and hub gears in a similar price bracket is extra weight.

Regarding batteries again, Jen, you would likely get rather more range from a Windsor with 2 NimHs than Liv with one battery, (Frank's wife has a nice bike setup there ) but get more power from the Liv. If you feel the weight, power & battery options of the Windsor are okay for you, and the Liv is a tad heavy, then you could save yourself a trip to Loughborough . Chargers aren't particularly heavy or bulky to carry in a pannier or rackbag, so one Powacycle battery may suffice - just don't forget to take it with you! maybe keep a spare at work in case .

Don't forget to factor in that battery capacity & range per charge decreases over time, so withiin a few years your range may drop to 80% or less than when new .

First thing though would be to verify that a NiMH Liv is an option, and when it might be available.

Stuart.

 

[frank9755]

Stuart,

I haven't got an easy way to weigh the bike, but A to B magazine did in their review and they measured it at '23.7kg, slightly less than claimed' including battery.

It was easy enough for me to weigh the battery, which was again less than claimed, at just under 3.6kg

A quick subtraction would get you to 20.1kg for the bike without battery. This doesn't include lights but does have stand, mudguards and a fairly chunky carrier.

Frank

 

[coops]

Thanks very much for the information, Frank, and I'm quite relieved you didn't have to go heaving the bike around!

So a weight comparison makes Windsor & 2 NiMH batteries around 2kg lighter than a Liv with one NiMH: ~27.3kg vs ~29.2kg.

EDIT: Though it seems AtoB can't decide on the Windsor's weight: skip to the end of the review and it states bike & battery is 24.7kg, so the difference above narrows to 1kg, and with these sort of inaccuracies in weight specifications, thats less than the likely errors involved, so I'd have to say the weight difference between Windsor & 2 NiMH and Liv + 1 NiMH is still inconclusive.

Stuart.

 

[Tim]

It is a lot of hassle to get to Loughborough though and theres still no local dealer which puts me off the Ezees a bit.

Jen.

Hi Jen, there is a Liv available to test ride in Kendal, Cumbria if that helps. Send me an email and I'll send you the details if you like. tim@50cycles.com
All the best,
Tim

 

[Jennykins]

I'm thinking now whether or not to go for a faster bike (ie Liv or Torq) which would enable me to get to work (13.5 miles) in less than 45 mins.

(I know I'm going against what I said about expense and unrestricted bikes! )

I've emailed Tim asking for details about the speed and range of the Liv v. Torq and how the Cycle to work scheme would work with a bike over £1000 like the Torq.

(If everything looks good then I will definitely get down to Loughborough for a good long test).

Jen.

 

[flecc]

In moderate conditions a Liv averaging 15 mph would do your trip in 54 minutes Jen.

The Torq derestricted and averaging 18 mph would do it in 45 minutes.

You might just get those down to 52 and 43 minutes respectively in ideal conditions.

With range, both would do the one way journey without any problems, but two ways is marginal, especially if the Torq was running derestricted. Charging at both ends would look after that easily though.
.