New Electric Bike but one small niggle

Hi Guys n Gals,

Just purchased my first electric bike (Kudos Cobra) but have a small niggle with it.

It has peddle assist and 3 modes for that but it also has a 'walking' setting that allows you to use the thumb throttle to keep a constant speed of 6kmh (walking speed). I would really love to increase the 'walking' speed to at least 'running' speed or faster, is there any way I can mod the bike to allow the thumb throttle to reach past 6kmh, Ideally to the leagal limit of 15.5mph?

Thanks in advance

Hi Guys n Gals,

 

Just purchased my first electric bike (Kudos Cobra) but have a small niggle with it.

 

It has peddle assist and 3 modes for that but it also has a 'walking' setting that allows you to use the thumb throttle to keep a constant speed of 6kmh (walking speed). I would really love to increase the 'walking' speed to at least 'running' speed or faster, is there any way I can mod the bike to allow the thumb throttle to reach past 6kmh, Ideally to the leagal limit of 15.5mph?

 

Thanks in advance

Couldn't you just put it in one of the modes other than walk and use the throttle?

Edited February 24, 201511 yr by Fordulike

Unfortunately not, perhaps I did not explain correctly.

The bike has 3 modes of assist, low, med, high and also a 6kmh button that if you hold, it keeps the bike at a constant 6kmh speed if you want to walk the bike. You can also use the thumb throttle to bring the bike to the 6kmh speed BUT you cannot use the thumb throttle with any of the assist modes. So the thumb throttle is ONLY for walking mode up to 6kmh.

That'as why I want to increase the 6kmh limit of the bike with the thumb throttle so I can use it like my dads bike which lets you use only electric up to the UK limit of 15.5mph.

I need to figure out how to remove the 6kmh speed limiter?

Thanks

That is correct, it's a pedelec and the throttle is only a walk alongside in accordance with EU law where fully acting throttles are not permitted. We in the UK are about to adopt the same law, so soon all our new e-bikes will be like that, many of them already are.

Current bikes with a fully acting throttle will be able to continue after the law change, so If Kudos can offer an alteration before the change you'll be able to keep it.

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Unfortunately not, perhaps I did not explain correctly.

 

The bike has 3 modes of assist, low, med, high and also a 6kmh button that if you hold, it keeps the bike at a constant 6kmh speed if you want to walk the bike. You can also use the thumb throttle to bring the bike to the 6kmh speed BUT you cannot use the thumb throttle with any of the assist modes. So the thumb throttle is ONLY for walking mode up to 6kmh.

 

That'as why I want to increase the 6kmh limit of the bike with the thumb throttle so I can use it like my dads bike which lets you use only electric up to the UK limit of 15.5mph.

 

I need to figure out how to remove the 6kmh speed limiter?

 

Thanks

My Kalkhoff Pro Connect has that walk mode as well although you have to hold the + button which is really awkward to maintain.

As far as I remember, they said to NEVER use it's walk mode to pull away with. It sounds like you want to mod it so you can ride without peddling along. Sounds like you bought the wrong bike?

Aside from anything, the amount of power that mode gives on mine simply isn't enough to propel me along (I haven't tried actually but you can feel it isn't). You'd need to have the full torque available from the motor for that, and that is not what the mode is designed for.

I have 2 Kudos bikes. the Typhoon has a thumb throttle which takes it to walking speed. Both bikes just need you to be turning the pedals to take the bike up to top speed. You could take the chain off and the bikes would still get to top speed on a flat road. The Typhoon would still get to top speed up a slight incline with no chain on it.

Your throttle will be designed as a walk along feature only. If you want the bike to go with no effort from you, stick it in first gear and start pedaling, the bike will soon go faster than your pedaling effort and you can relax.

All this presumes that your cobra has a simple pedal sensor and not a torque sensor.

I have 2 Kudos bikes. the Typhoon has a thumb throttle which takes it to walking speed. Both bikes just need you to be turning the pedals to take the bike up to top speed. You could take the chain off and the bikes would still get to top speed on a flat road. The Typhoon would still get to top speed up a slight incline with no chain on it.

 

Your throttle will be designed as a walk along feature only. If you want the bike to go with no effort from you, stick it in first gear and start pedaling, the bike will soon go faster than your pedaling effort and you can relax.

 

All this presumes that your cobra has a simple pedal sensor and not a torque sensor.

Of course, when the new law comes in, all that it will actually require is that the motor stops as soon as the rider stops pedalling. No 'ban on throttles'

No doubt, the Chinese will still provide throttles but they will need the rider to 'Ghost pedal' to operate the pedelec, This will mean sailing along at 15.5mph whist slowly turning the pedals.

The mighty Bosch company will not like this because of their torque sensor control rather than pedelec magnet ring will not allow such chicanery.

My guess is that Germany will table an amendment to EU law.

The Woosh I had as my first e bike gave all its power from just turning the pedals over. Using the throttle when moving didn’t add any extra power if you were in the highest setting already. So I can’t see what’s different there. The only time you had to work harder was going up steep hills. That’s one reason why I got rid of it. I wanted to put some effort in to get the power out to give me a work out.

I am confused.

You buy an electric bike, yet you want a work out.

Why not just switch the power off?

Of course, when the new law comes in, all that it will actually require is that the motor stops as soon as the rider stops pedalling. No 'ban on throttles'

 

My guess is that Germany will table an amendment to EU law.

No need for Germany to act, the EU law already effectively bans throttles if the e-bike have not been type approved under motor vehicle type approval legislation, and the new UK legislation will also. Here is the pedelec exemption from type approval

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h

Note the section I've highlighted in bold. If a throttle is in use while pedalling there will be no progressive phase down in power, thereby breaching the exemption conditions.

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I am confused.

You buy an electric bike, yet you want a work out.

Why not just switch the power off?

Because with a TS bike you can put in the same effort as you would with a non powered bike but go uphill twice or three times as fast. It’s like having bionic legs. With the very hilly terrain where I live it’s very hard work using a non powered bike at my age. I could still use one the last time I had one a couple of years ago but there were some hills I just couldn’t get up. With my Kalkhoff I can get up any hill, and depending on how much effort I put in I can go up them much faster than I could on my road bikes twenty years ago. I still get as much of a work out as I did with them too. I just go faster for the same effort.

Because with a TS bike you can put in the same effort as you would with a non powered bike but go uphill twice or three times as fast. It’s like having bionic legs. With the very hilly terrain where I live it’s very hard work using a non powered bike at my age. I could still use one the last time I had one a couple of years ago but there were some hills I just couldn’t get up. With my Kalkhoff I can get up any hill, and depending on how much effort I put in I can go up them much faster than I could on my road bikes twenty years ago. I still get as much of a work out as I did with them too. I just go faster for the same effort.

Sorry John, We've heard this argument a few times, but I can't make any sense of it. You can turn the power up and down on any bike and you can also pedal as hard as you want. Or, to turn it round the other way, for any given pedal effort, you can adjust the speed to whatever you want up to the bike's maximum.I can't see how the type of sensor makes a difference.

It is the 'maximum continuous rated power' bit that confuses me.

I know the difference between continual and continuous, but this bit still eludes my understanding.

Maximum rated power would be simple to understand, so what is the significance of putting in 'continuous'?

Of course, when the new law comes in, all that it will actually require is that the motor stops as soon as the rider stops pedalling. No 'ban on throttles'

No doubt, the Chinese will still provide throttles but they will need the rider to 'Ghost pedal' to operate the pedelec, This will mean sailing along at 15.5mph whist slowly turning the pedals.

The mighty Bosch company will not like this because of their torque sensor control rather than pedelec magnet ring will not allow such chicanery.

My guess is that Germany will table an amendment to EU law.

the woosh Gallego has a new solution to comply with the new regulation, the throttle only activates after you rotate the cranks for about half a turn. Then it works like a normal throttle.

Rated means that it's been tested/evaluated, and from the results, the engineer has decided that's what it should be. Continuous means exactly that. You can run your bike continuously on level one or level 5. The maximum continuous power is the maximum continuous power that the motor can run at without overheating. Put them all together and the rated maximum continuous power means that the engineer has determined the maximum continuous power that the motor can run at without overheating, and he's written it down in the motor's specification.

The user or manufacturer can, of course, run the motor above its rating, so the rating of 250w has little bearing on the actual power of you bike. The big problem with the rating is that it's also speed dependent. Because efficiency goes down at low speed, even a 250w motor run at 250w will overheat if it slows down too much going up a steep hill, so the engineer needs to apply a bit of judgement too when he rates it. You could be correct in rating what we'd call a 1000w motor at 250w if you wanted to be sure that it wouldn't overheat. Basically, nothing can be tied down. It's all a nonsense, so it would make sense to abandon the power limit and just have a speed limit.

Still don't get the difference between 'maximum power' and 'maximum continuous power'

BUT, if there is a difference, then non-continuous power could be as high as you like as long as it is only continual and not continuous?

 

No doubt, the Chinese will still provide throttles but they will need the rider to 'Ghost pedal' to operate the pedelec, This will mean sailing along at 15.5mph whist slowly turning the pedals.

 

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On both my bikes as I explained, you don't need a throttle they simply need the pedals to be turning. Having a throttle where the pedals need to be turning is pointless. On my bikes and I also think the OP's bike simply turning the pedals is all that is required for a flat road.

Going uphill needs effort on the pedals but having a throttle wouldn't change the fact that you need to put in some effort on the pedals to go uphill.

This system, to me, is better than a torque sensor as I can work as hard as I want, ( if you read my posts about racing buses uphill and my flat road top speed you'll see ) or to get a little lazy after racing a bus uphill and letting the bike do most of the work whilst I get my breath back..

it would make sense to abandon the power limit and just have a speed limit.

The European Parliament made a recommendation to do just this, but sadly the EU Commission turned it down.

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the woosh Gallego has a new solution to comply with the new regulation, the throttle only activates after you rotate the cranks for about half a turn. Then it works like a normal throttle.

I don't think this complies though, due to there being no phase down of power with the throttle in use, as mentioned here

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The maximum continuous power is the power at which it won't overheat. The maximum power is the most it will produce, but it will overheat, so it can only do it for a short time.

So what you are suggesting is. If you want to minimise the over heating of the motor, then rotation speed is the key? Rather than keeping it in a high gear and using all your leg power to go up a hill, you'd be better off (and the motor more to the point) if you go down a number of gears so that the motor is spinning at a more vigorous revolutionary speed?

So what you are suggesting is. If you want to minimise the over heating of the motor, then rotation speed is the key? Rather than keeping it in a high gear and using all your leg power to go up a hill, you'd be better off (and the motor more to the point) if you go down a number of gears so that the motor is spinning at a more vigorous revolutionary speed?

Overheating is more likely to be an issue with hub motors, since they include the most powerful e-bike motors. They are completely independent of the cycle gears used of course, so for efficiency and avoiding overheating, the motor is kept in the upper half of the speed range by adjusting the rider assistance to keep up sufficient road speed.

Most crank drive units use moderate power motors, so overheating is much less of an issue. Also most are effectively protected at lower speeds by using torque sensors, since less rider effort means less power applied so less heat. More rider effort means more power so speed rises, once again protecting against overheating.

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Rated means that it's been tested/evaluated, and from the results, the engineer has decided that's what it should be. Continuous means exactly that. You can run your bike continuously on level one or level 5. The maximum continuous power is the maximum continuous power that the motor can run at without overheating. Put them all together and the rated maximum continuous power means that the engineer has determined the maximum continuous power that the motor can run at without overheating, and he's written it down in the motor's specification.

 

The user or manufacturer can, of course, run the motor above its rating, so the rating of 250w has little bearing on the actual power of you bike. The big problem with the rating is that it's also speed dependent. Because efficiency goes down at low speed, even a 250w motor run at 250w will overheat if it slows down too much going up a steep hill, so the engineer needs to apply a bit of judgement too when he rates it. You could be correct in rating what we'd call a 1000w motor at 250w if you wanted to be sure that it wouldn't overheat. Basically, nothing can be tied down. It's all a nonsense, so it would make sense to abandon the power limit and just have a speed limit.

Thanks, at last I understand

Mike