Need help with Ebike choice

[garyrmck]

Hi,
I'm looking for ebike recommendations . Budget up to Aus $4000 (compares to about UKpounds 2200)....usage will be bike trails – bitumen, some gravel and dirt. Daily use on road (not commuting , just shopping etc. Not particularly fit, 64 years old and a hip replacement....)

Wondering what is the best choice re Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha?
Have heard that Shimano tends to obsolete things regularly meaning parts may be hard to come by in the future (just what I have read so don't know if this is true), Also that it is lower in power (I'm 95kg, so it will need all the power it can get

heard that Bosch batteries are over the top in price and have a chip so that you can't build your own ... Can put together a 36 volt lipo sytem for less than AUS$200 myself.

Can't find any online prices for replacement batteries so don't know what to expect re Bosh or the other brands.

Basically trying to educate myself a bit before purchase. I've found bike shops in Australia to be on a par with shady used car salesmen and have told me a lot of crap, and seem to have not much in stock to show....

I have a 4 year old Giant 21 speed, but apparently it's not suitable for conversion – carbon bits on it...

Bikes that I have seen that look OK are:
http://www.merida.com.au/en_au/bikes/e-bike/steps-sport-tour/2016/espresso-sport-tour-800-eq-6277.html (Shimano steps)
http://www.merida.com.au/en_au/bikes/e-bike/bosch-city-ebikes/2016/e-spresso-sport-tour-410-6337.html (Bosch)
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/au/bikes-quick-eplus (Yamaha)

any others worth looking into?


Help much appreciated
cheers
Gary
Geelong Australia

 

[D8ve]

Welcome cobbler, it's test ride time. Test them all then ask again.
The power difference between legal bikes is negligible. Battery capacity is more important unless you have limited range requirements. Those bikes are torque sensor bikes so you need to put in some effort to move.
Most kits and cheaper ebikes have rotation sensors or throttles, if you can't pedal they can still move you but much reduced range.

 

[Birger Bulukin]

Welcome cobbler, it's test ride time. Test them all then ask again.
The power difference between legal bikes is negligible. Battery capacity is more important unless you have limited range requirements. Those bikes are torque sensor bikes so you need to put in some effort to move.
Most kits and cheaper ebikes have rotation sensors or throttles, if you can't pedal they can still move you but much reduced range.

The Carbon frame in your present bike doesn't prevent installing a mid drive (crank mount) motor with downtube (frame mounted) battery.
Suggest a 15Ah battery fixed to the bottle holder fixture.
As mentioned above a moment (torque) sensor should be preferred above rotating sensor. Gives a much more pleasant drive.
I have bought 4 sets via Alibaba and MXUS in China. Satisfied so far.
At least in Norway expenses end up far below shopping locally. Transportation and Customs are what makes the computation a bit unsure.
Birger

 

[Nealh]

Your carbon bike may be able to take a bbs 01 or 02 crank drive motor but depends on the bottom bracket shell and how much carbon material there is, the bottom bracket area is usually bulkier then a standard steel or ali frame. Forget putting anything on the front with cf forks.
There are a couple of aussies on here who may be able to help with sourcing or advice on who to go to, Geebee and aushiker try PMing them using the conversation tab on your profile page.

 

[Trevormonty]

I'm fan of factory mid drives, you get benefit of torque sensing, more natural feel. Cleaner installation and more reliable system, with excellent support and warranty (2yr) for both drive and most importantly battery.

In regards to kits, you need to have s bit of DIY capability, Bafang motors have excellent reliability history but rest of installation may not. Good luck get 2yr on $800 battery.

For what you plan to use it for and <AUD4000, will get you Shimano E6000 powered hardtail MTB and maybe Bosch Perforfance drive. Besides Merida check out Avanti range. Both Bosch and Yamaha are rated for serious MTB ie handle vibration and knocks. E600O is only rate for light off road, ie beginner and intermediate track with no jumping.

I own Bosch CX (FS MTB) and Shimano E6000 (trekking), CX is considerably more powerful but E6000 is quite capable of climbing most hills of typical intermediate track. Shimano have more powerful MTB E8000 drive (excellent reviews) which Merida are using, you should start to see these bikes early next year.

Both Shimano and Bosch well supported in Australia/NZ. Their battery prices maybe dear compared to kit ones but they are good quality and have 2yr warranty. NB in 2yrs time you should be able to buy 600-700W replacements compared to today's 400-500Whr batteries.

 

[Andy88]

I'm fan of factory mid drives, you get benefit of torque sensing, more natural feel. Cleaner installation and more reliable system, with excellent support and warranty (2yr) for both drive and most importantly battery.

In regards to kits, you need to have s bit of DIY capability, Bafang motors have excellent reliability history but rest of installation may not. Good luck get 2yr on $800 battery.

For what you plan to use it for and <AUD4000, will get you Shimano E6000 powered hardtail MTB and maybe Bosch Perforfance drive. Besides Merida check out Avanti range. Both Bosch and Yamaha are rated for serious MTB ie handle vibration and knocks. E600O is only rate for light off road, ie beginner and intermediate track with no jumping.

I own Bosch CX (FS MTB) and Shimano E6000 (trekking), CX is considerably more powerful but E6000 is quite capable of climbing most hills of typical intermediate track. Shimano have more powerful MTB E8000 drive (excellent reviews) which Merida are using, you should start to see these bikes early next year.

Both Shimano and Bosch well supported in Australia/NZ. Their battery prices maybe dear compared to kit ones but they are good quality and have 2yr warranty. NB in 2yrs time you should be able to buy 600-700W replacements compared to today's 400-500Whr batteries.

I enjoyed reading this, I must agree the mid-drives do look sleek and tidy.

What is your view on the Shimano E8000 in comparison to the Bosch CX and Yamaha ?

 

[Trevormonty]

T

 

[Trevormonty]

The reviews on E8000 are good, my biggest issue with Bosch is power assist switch. I find it hard to use without looking at it, easy to double/ triple tap and end up in wrong level. E6000 I never need to look at and no double taps. When MTB you can't afford to take eye of track for second to change assist levels.

One big plus of Bosch is it powers on instantly, E6000 takes good 5 second. In eco and tour/normal mode both are as smooth as each other, Bosch maybe slight quieter. In high setting E6000 delivery is little lumpy, given you only need for short periods climbing steep hills it is not big issue. For commuting touring I doubt there is much in it between E6000 and Bosch Active.

 

[Andy88]

Right, I see. My needs not so critical as only for town riding, does the power assist kick in as soon as you pedal or does it take a bit of momentum first?

 

[garyrmck]

After a bit of research I'm now interested in the Giant Quick E+
which has a Yamaha drive - any comments?
cheers
Gary

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Right, I see. My needs not so critical as only for town riding, does the power assist kick in as soon as you pedal or does it take a bit of momentum first?

Pretty much straight away.

I think you'll find that a rear high torque hub-motor will be much more suitable for what you want. I've ridden literally hundreds of different e-bikes and I must admit that I don't get the idea of torque multiplication systems being better because they're more natural. You want an electric bike because you don't want to provide all the power yourself. Every different way of getting the electrical help has advantages and disadvantages. For me, for normal riding on the road, a hub motor is far superior to a mid-drive system.

BTW, you have torque multiplier hub-motors the like the Wisper Torque and KTM Panasonics if you want the "natural feel". Torque multiplier/independent power is not a difference between hub-motors and crank motors. It's a control system difference. You can use either system with any type of motor. Sorry for making a sweeping unqualified statement, but I'm pretty sure that most heavy/unfit riders would prefer independent power control, and fit people might prefer a torque multiplier system.

Another thing: "Torque simulation", which is actually current control is a relatively new thing being used on more and more Chinese bikes. Many people expressing opinions on control systems have never tried it. Years ago, most of the Chinese hub-motored bikes used a single power speed control system, which was far inferior to what modern bikes use. There are still a few bikes around like that. Cyclamatic is one of them. Out of the rest of the Chinese hub-motored bikes many still use multi-level speed control, which can give an abrupt start off, which is a bit uncomfortable, but they're gradually changing over to current control.

 

[soundwave]

 

[Andy88]

Pretty much straight away.

I think you'll find that a rear high torque hub-motor will be much more suitable for what you want. I've ridden literally hundreds of different e-bikes and I must admit that I don't get the idea of torque multiplication systems being better because they're more natural. You want an electric bike because you don't want to provide all the power yourself. Every different way of getting the electrical help has advantages and disadvantages. For me, for normal riding on the road, a hub motor is far superior to a mid-drive system.

BTW, you have torque multiplier hub-motors the like the Wisper Torque and KTM Panasonics if you want the "natural feel". Torque multiplier/independent power is not a difference between hub-motors and crank motors. It's a control system difference. You can use either system with any type of motor. Sorry for making a sweeping unqualified statement, but I'm pretty sure that most heavy/unfit riders would prefer independent power control, and fit people might prefer a torque multiplier system.

Another thing: "Torque simulation", which is actually current control is a relatively new thing being used on more and more Chinese bikes. Many people expressing opinions on control systems have never tried it. Years ago, most of the Chinese hub-motored bikes used a single power speed control system, which was far inferior to what modern bikes use. There are still a few bikes around like that. Cyclamatic is one of them. Out of the rest of the Chinese hub-motored bikes many still use multi-level speed control, which can give an abrupt start off, which is a bit uncomfortable, but they're gradually changing over to current control.

Thank you for putting me back on track Dave, I'm in agreeance and after a lot of deliberation will adhere to the back hub, what I have found is some of the smaller independent fitters are avid younger mtb trail enthusiasts, they can be a little biased on their own preference when discussing options with them.

Would you mind advising on below?

1. Rear Hub 250w or 350w or 500w ?
2. Geared or Non Geared ?
3. Freewheel or Cassette ?

 

[Rohloffboy]

The Bafang Max Drive CD unit seems like it may give Bosch and Yamaha a run for there money.

I seem to remember a YouTube video featuring a MTB version, being imported by an Australian dealer, think they were called Maxwell.

The Max Drive has got to be better than a kit, but I guess it's early days yet as they only came to market last year, one to watch out for though, me thinks!

 

[Andy88]

I saw that video as well rb, bike build look excellent but not available in the uk.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Thank you for putting me back on track Dave, I'm in agreeance and after a lot of deliberation will adhere to the back hub, what I have found is some of the smaller independent fitters are avid younger mtb trail enthusiasts, they can be a little biased on their own preference when discussing options with them.

Would you mind advising on below?

1. Rear Hub 250w or 350w or 500w ?
2. Geared or Non Geared ?
3. Freewheel or Cassette ?

If you don't care about legality, a 500w geared rear hub-motor running at 48v with a 20 amp controller should be sufficient from everything you've said.

Cassette or freewheel depends on the bike. Freewheel for 7 speeds or fewer. Cassette for 9 speeds or more. For 8 speed cassette is best, but you can still use a freewheel motor.

The common cassette motors are Bafang 500W CST along with its Xofo and MXUS clones, and Q128C. The Q128C is smaller and has a removable label, so nobody would be able to determine its power. It's not quite as robust as the bigger Bafang.

For freewheel motors, the 500w Bafang BPM takes some beating. It's a workhorse. Again, there's the Q128H, which is smaller and has the removeable label, but this one can compete with the Bafang. The rotor and stator are wider than the C version, so it has a higher rating and gives more torque.

Any of those motors can be matched with a 48v Dolphin (09) battery that has an included 20A controller that makes a very simple neat conversion.

When I started, I had a normal 250w hub motor bike. It was a lot better than no motor, but struggled a bit on our many steep hills, so I switched to 500w geared motors. They were perfect. You could turn the power up if you wanted to be lazy or down if you wanted exercise. I managed 44 miles on my FS MTB before I switched it on one time, so no problem pedalling with no power. The extra power allowed 20 mph commuting.

I then tried various crank-drives, which are a good solution as far as power is concerned, or if you want some excercise, but the constant gear-changing and associated banging and crunching wore me down after a bit. Hub-motors are just so much more relaxing. I don't mean relaxing in the sense of not pedalling hard. They just give a more pleasant ride. Everybody will come on and say that if you do this and that the gears won't crunch. Sure, there's work-arounds, but some crunching doesn't get avoided, especially when you have cold hands and lethargy due to hyperthermia during a long winter commute. Gear sensors improve it a bit, but the last thing you want is your motor cutting out every time you change gear going up a steep hill. I'm not saying that crank motors are bad, but I am saying that they're not as good as the right hub-motor for people like us.

 

[Andy88]

Dave, you are a living ebike encyclopedia, I'm saving this thread for reference, thanks once again.

 

[Rohloffboy]

Andy88 it looks like those Bafang Max Drives Ebikes are available in the uk, not the exact same but similiar, for £1,100 which seems like a fair price when you look at the spec.

I can't do the link thing, but here are the eBay listing numbers for a model called the Greenway.

I am seriously considering buying one, so will be interested to read comments from the experts on here.

Although I am slightly concerned that one of the descriptions says that the battery is rack mounted, when the image clearly shows down tube mounted on a bike with no rack fitted!

Oh to do.

121927007291

222312989239

I am quite amazed that no one else has posted these already, although I am sure at the prices folk on here will be interested, not so much so the dealers who advertise on here!

 

[Andy88]

Let me have a look, I'll try and post a link or pic here.

 

[Andy88]

Let me have a look, I'll try and post a link or pic here.

Is this it

Welcome to Greenway Electric Bicycles!

Bike name: Greenway Electric city bike.

Size: 700C with front suspension fork.

Colour: Black (Pictured)

Brand: GEENWAY®

Technical specifications:

Frame

Aluminium alloy 6061 E-bike Tour/City

Fork

SR Sun tour SF15-NEX-HLO-DS700, 63MM Lockout.

Brakes

Shimano Mechanical disc brakes, especially designed for ebikes.

Hub front

Shimano RM33

HUB Rear

Shimano RM33

Rim

Alloy double wall

Tyre

KENDA 700C*40C

Freewheel

Shimano CSHG200-9-11-32T

Front Derailleur

None

Rear Derailleur

Shimano ALTUS

Crank

BAFANG 38T

Motor

BAFANG Centre motor DC36V 250W

Battery

SAMSUNG CELL Li-ION, DC36V 10.4AH

Power drive
Bafang Drive System, Max Speed-25 KM/H

Display

Bafang

Battery Charge time
5-6 Hours
Maximun distance
Upto 80 Kilometre once fully charged.

Weight

20.9KG

Warranty

1 Year ( Frame , Fork, Battery &Motor)

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

1) Brakes: Our Bikes fitted with 2 brakes, SHIIMANO Mechanical disk.

2) Frame numbers: Individual frame numbers for each bike frame used.