My wheel runs backwards HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wakefield]

Hello, Hope some clever clogs can help me here i'm tearing my hair out

Today i got the brushless controller plugged it all in and the wheel runs backwards. I have tried swaping phase wires- no good. Tried messing with the "learning"wires on the controller to reverse motor- no good. FYI the controller is brain brushless 250w. there are no wires to short out and enable reverse as i have seen on some controllers, so im stuck!

Not sure if this will shed any light but the bike is a Zipper Z1 folding bike. ( all bought second hand ) controller off ebay used. so unsure if it is a dodgy controller or a dodgy motor or i am missing something else.

All sensible suggestions appreciated.

 

[Pukka]

Turn the wheel around

 

[Nealh]

Usually with learn wires you need to connect /disconnect them until the motor runs the correct way then turn off the bike before disconnecting the wires a final time, next start up should have the motor running the right way. Perseverance it the name of the game or buy a better controller system. They also sync the motor phase automatically so eventually they should find the right combo.

 

[wakefield]

I will give the learn thing another go tomorrow...i just wanted to get it running to sell then look for something much better.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Hello, Hope some clever clogs can help me here i'm tearing my hair out

Today i got the brushless controller plugged it all in and the wheel runs backwards. I have tried swaping phase wires- no good. Tried messing with the "learning"wires on the controller to reverse motor- no good. FYI the controller is brain brushless 250w. there are no wires to short out and enable reverse as i have seen on some controllers, so im stuck!

Not sure if this will shed any light but the bike is a Zipper Z1 folding bike. ( all bought second hand ) controller off ebay used. so unsure if it is a dodgy controller or a dodgy motor or i am missing something else.

All sensible suggestions appreciated.

Its simple, the modern brushless motor is basically a 3 phase motor, with 3 fields, being fed DC, to one field at a time, causing the motor to revolve.
So simply swap any two of the three phase wires, the easiest ones to swap with each other, and leave the third wire exactly where it is now.
That will reverse the direction of rotation.
regards
Andy

 

[wakefield]

so you didnt read i have already swapped phase wires?

 

[Nealh]

It's not as simple as that Andy if you have halls as well, there are 36 combo's to try and only about six will actually work and of those six you will find two work perfectly as some controllers if sine wave simply don't like to run without sensors.
Persevering with the learn wire sis the way to go as the controller will eventually automatically cipher the correct sequence.

What I don't understand is why buyers opt for a cheap troublesome set up which is well documented alone on various help threads regarding the Brainpower on this forum and pay a little more and buy the much better KT ones with controllers ranging from 12a up to 40a if required.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I did read, but you swapped wrongly, that is why I gave you exact details, how to do it correctly. OK?
You swapped all three, that leaves the direction of rotation, just as it was before!!
Its a 3 field motor !GOTCHA! That many fail to understand....
Watch this:-

Andy

 

[Nealh]

so you didnt read i have already swapped phase wires?

Swapping phases isn't enough on it's own if you have hall sensors as well, as I mentioned there are 36 combo's.
A chart to follow allowing all poss combo's you will be lucky to find six to actually work and maybe only two which will be faultless.

 

[wakefield]

no i am daft but not that daft i only swapped two phase wires. for clarity i also swapped hall sensor leads a few times in an attempt. I dont quite understand why the swapping phase wires failed. but it did. I was hoping someone may have had the self same issues and solved it before..

 

[Andy-Mat]

Swapping phases isn't enough on it's own if you have hall sensors as well, as I mentioned there are 36 combo's.
A chart to follow allowing all poss combo's you will be lucky to find six to actually work and maybe only two which will be faultless.
View attachment 35924

I just posted a video showing exactly the same method, its dead simple.
Assuming is a 3 field motor.
If it is a 6 or more field motor, which he neglected to mention, its slightly more complicated.
It then depends on just how many motor wires (not counting Hall effect sensor wiring), are coming from the controller....If only 3, thats where the two need to be swapped. Assuming he got the wiring otherwise correct and the only error was in the direction!
There are electronic ways to do it, but as the gentleman says in the video, the simple way is by far the easiest!
regards
Amdy

 

[wakefield]

It's not as simple as that Andy if you have halls as well, there are 36 combo's to try and only about six will actually work and of those six you will find two work perfectly as some controllers if sine wave simply don't like to run without sensors.
Persevering with the learn wire sis the way to go as the controller will eventually automatically cipher the correct sequence.

What I don't understand is why buyers opt for a cheap troublesome set up which is well documented alone on various help threads regarding the Brainpower on this forum and pay a little more and buy the much better KT ones with controllers ranging from 12a up to 40a if required.

Unfortunately I didnt know they are troublesome until now. or i would have steered clear.

 

[wakefield]

I did read, but you swapped wrongly, that is why I gave you exact details, how to do it correctly. OK?
You swapped all three, that leaves the direction of rotation, just as it was before!!
Its a 3 field motor !GOTCHA! That many fail to understand....
Watch this:-

Andy

no i am daft but not that daft i only swapped two phase wires. for clarity i also swapped hall sensor leads a few times in an attempt. I dont quite understand why the swapping phase wires failed. but it did. I was hoping someone may have had the self same issues and solved it before.. SORRY YOUr GONNA have to take back your gotcha pal.

 

[Andy-Mat]

no i am daft but not that daft i only swapped two phase wires. for clarity i also swapped hall sensor leads a few times in an attempt. I dont quite understand why the swapping phase wires failed. but it did. I was hoping someone may have had the self same issues and solved it before..

You must do one or the other, swapping phase wires and hall effect wires is wrong. As it basically negates what was done, or changes too much, Neal's diagram appears to be correct, and a good place to start.
To get the hall effect rotation correct, can you get them back as they were? Then test the direction of rotation, then if still needed, swap two field wires.
An e-bike tester may be needed if all else fails, as it shows the direction of rotation of the motor and separately, the Hall effect sensors too!
I hope this helps.
Andy

 

[Andy-Mat]

no i am daft but not that daft i only swapped two phase wires. for clarity i also swapped hall sensor leads a few times in an attempt. I dont quite understand why the swapping phase wires failed. but it did. I was hoping someone may have had the self same issues and solved it before.. SORRY YOUr GONNA have to take back your gotcha pal.

No, I think that you earned the GOTSCHA by changing too much, too quickly, without (your words) fully understanding the implications!
You are not alone, many go the same/similar path with BLDC motors.
The next time, you will do it correctly, as your learning curve improves!
Best of luck.
Andy

 

[Nealh]

By swapping halls and phase it will be totally out of sync, adding halls to the equation completely changes the logic of how the wiring affects the sync. Simply swapping two of the phases doesn't work if the halls sequence is changed willy nilly.

 

[wakefield]

Apparently 36 x willy nillys i would have cracked it. I would have just said I dunno pal. if you tried swapping Phases maybe the controller is goosed.

You must do one or the other, swapping phase wires and hall effect wires is wrong. As it basically negates what was done, or changes too much, Neal's diagram appears to be correct, and a good place to start.
To get the hall effect rotation correct, can you get them back as they were? Then test the direction of rotation, then if still needed, swap two field wires.
An e-bike tester may be needed if all else fails, as it shows the direction of rotation of the motor and separately, the Hall effect sensors too!
I hope this helps.
Andy

already done that. just say You dont know if you dont know. I shall try the hall permutations (thank you neilh) as well as doing learn wire a few more times.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Apparently 36 x willy nillys i would have cracked it. I would have just said I dunno pal. if you tried swapping Phases maybe the controller is goosed.

already done that. just say You dont know if you dont know. I shall try the hall permutations (thank you neilh) as well as doing learn wire a few more times.

By swapping halls and phase it will be totally out of sync, adding halls to the equation completely changes the logic of how the wiring affects the sync. Simply swapping two of the phases doesn't work if the halls sequence is changed willy nilly.

I agree 100%, I wrongly assumed that the Hall effect sensors had not been interfered with, as the information given was sparse at best in the initial posts!
But with the knowledge that both field and Hall wiring has been changed around "willy nilly" (it seems!), it still should be a fairly easy job to get things working again, for someone who both understands BLDC motors and Hall effect sensors!
Fixing it remotely though is quite a different problem!
Your guide was the best that I have seen for such work! I am retaining a copy, just in case!!! Many thanks for being so kind and sharing it for all here to see.
Regards
Andy

 

[joelectric]

I agree 100%, I wrongly assumed that the Hall effect sensors had not been interfered with, as the information given was sparse at best in the initial posts!
But with the knowledge that both field and Hall wiring has been changed around "willy nilly" (it seems!), it still should be a fairly easy job to get things working again, for someone who both understands BLDC motors and Hall effect sensors!
Fixing it remotely though is quite a different problem!
Your guide was the best that I have seen for such work! I am retaining a copy, just in case!!! Many thanks for being so kind and sharing it for all here to see.
Regards
Andy

Are you going to take back your GOTSCHA ?

 

[Nealh]

I would set the all wiring phase and hall back to original which likely was colour to colour matched then revert to trying the 'Learn wires' which may take several attempts for it to sync the controller, if eventually you get nowhere disconnect them and try manually using the chart and noting down on paper each characteristic of the connection to narrow down possible combo's one or two will work. Some will work fwd and some bckw , some will just make a horrible unsynced connection noise and some will just stutter with wrong hall connection. Don't use throttle if fitted for testing but PAS on low power so you don't damage the controller, until it is running correctly you risk damage then you can give it full current.