Kalkhoff v Cytronex

[Cyclezee]

I have been fairly quiet for a while, but have been prompted privately by a member to give my opinion, for what it is worth, on the merits of these two makes of electric bike.
Please note these are my personal opinions and would expect, quite rightly others to disagree.

With regard to the Kalkhoff, I can only comment on the Agattu, but I believe most of what I have to say will apply to any of the current generation of Panasonic powered bikes.

The Kalkhoff, Panasonic powered bikes are excellent machines, delivering power smoothly just when you need it. The only real criticism I have is the choice of the rear sprocket. With the standard 22 tooth sprocket, I never used 1st, 2nd or 3rd gear, so I have changed to a 19 tooth on my wave frame and 18 tooth on my diamond frame. I got both sprockets from a local bike shop for £4 each. To date, I have had no problems with the 7 speed Nexus hub gears, which some seem to have suffered, or any other cycle components apart from a pedal falling off on my first ride and broken rear mudguard. Both these issues were quickly resolved by 50cycles.
With the Kalkhoffs, the power kicks in as soon as you start to pedal. I can cruise at a relaxed, leisurely pace taking in the scenery, or ride what I call quickly, up to 20 mph on the flat without too much difficulty. The range is excellent, I have ridden 30 miles using high power all the time and still had power to spare.
Both my Kalkhoffs are Agattus, which are very comfortable to ride, and I am so glad I did not pay all that extra money for a Pro-connect.

The Cytronex is quite a different animal, the Trek FX 7.3 is an excellent bike unpowered, with the exception of the very uncomfortable Bontrager saddle which I changed very quickly. As you will all know the Cytronex is several Kg lighter and much sporty in design and appearance than the Agattu. You have to pedal to 5 mph before switching on the power, then wait until you reach 11 mph before switching to high power.
The system works quite well once you get the hang of it. More rider input is required compared to the Kalkhoff as it is a less powerful system, but it does give a reasonable level of assistance. Personally, I never seem to average more than 12 or 13 mph, which I find disappointing and surprising as it gives the illusion that I am going faster. I can achieve a range of 20 miles with a fair bit of rider input.
I am not a fit cyclist like Chris Bike or Mark/Cytronex and use power all the time apart from downhill.
When it comes to comfort, speed and range, the Kalkhoff is the clear winner.
Mark/Cytronex claims charging the battery just before a ride gives an extra boost of power, I have not noticed any difference. The bike is supposedly aimed at the commuter, but how many commuters want wait 90 minutes in the morning before setting off waiting for the battery to charge. Personally, if I were commuting by bike, I would want it already charged.
I think Mark has designed the Cytronex to suit his needs, a fit cyclist who wanted a bit of assistance. His first customer was Chris, who is a cycling enthusiast and fairly fit despite his recent illness, but with little previous experience of electric bikes. Chris loves it which is great, but it is not for your average e-biker.
I think the Cytronex needs a more powerful motor, a more powerful battery with greater range, three levels of power and a battery meter.
When it comes to price, I do not think it is too unreasonable, but if you 'spec' it up to the level of an Agattu, i.e. adding suspension by getting the 7300 model, then add mudguards, a spare battery to give similar range, carrier, stand etc., you will be paying the same money as you would for an Agattu. In addition, the weight will also be very similar.
To sum up, the Kalkhoff is a great bike as it stands, in comparision, the Cytronex is a good bike with room for improvement to give it wider appeal.

J hn

 

[flecc]

Many thanks for this excellent summary John. It should help many to decide on the relative merits of the two bikes.

I think it's fair to say that we had two main classes of e-bike until very recently, hub-motored, often high powered and sometimes feeling a bit like motor vehicles, and those with the Panasonic unit which have a very different character, more bicycle like.

Mark with his Cytronex has introduced a clearly different third class, a true sporting bicycle with a facility for help when the going gets tough. It should appeal to cycling enthusiasts who by reason of age or any other reason feel the need for that extra help at times but who don't want to give up true sporting cycling. It's a concept I'd like to see trumpeted in CTC and cycling club circles, since that's where there's a big potential for the ideal owners, probably more so than in this forum at present.

David Henshaw of A to B magazine likes the Cytronex and as a strong cyclist which we already knew from his Presteigne podiums, finds it a very fast bike, faster than the Torq and Forza. That adds emphasis to the point you make about the suitability for strong cyclists.

 

[JohnInStockie]

Hi John

Thanks very much for posting that personal insight. As the only member with both bikes you are both fortunate (to have both bikes) and uniquely qualified to make this comment.

Can I ask how you tend to use these bikes? When do you say, 'Today its the Kalkhoff!' or 'Cytronex today!'?

John

 

[frank9755]

John,

A very interesting post, providing helpful balance for those considering buying a bike, and making it more likely they will get the right one.

I found this comment particularly interesting:

Personally, I never seem to average more than 12 or 13 mph, which I find disappointing and surprising as it gives the illusion that I am going faster.

I believe that is due to the frame geometry, in particular the wheelbase. A modern fashion is to make this short, to copy racing bikes and to make the bikes feel more 'responsive' and faster. In fact, the Trek 7.3 hasn't got a particularly short wheelbase (as it happens the dimensions are almost identical to my touring bike), but electric bikes tend to have stretched frames with longer wheelbases, so feel a bit slower at the same speed. That was my theory, and your evidence supports it nicely!

Frank

 

[flecc]

Longer wheelbases make for slower steering responses and greater stability on any vehicle which will give an impression of a slower speed.
.

 

[frank9755]

John,

Have you taken the Cytronex on any trips to the mountains? I think it would come into its own in hilly country, and you might not be getting the best of it in your flattish part of the world.

Before I did my Tongxin conversion, I spent some time thinking about whether to go for a 190 rpm motor or a 260. The 190 would have produced a similar bike to the Cytronex. It would help on the hills but not do much on the flat, whereas the 260 wouldn't have enough torque for a serious hill but would drive the bike to higher speeds on the flat.

I decided that, as I live in a flat area, and I was mainly planning to use the bike for commuting, the 260 was more use for me. If I had wanted the bike more for weekends away in hilly country, I'd have gone for the 190.

Remember A to B's comment on the Brompton Nano (with a Tongxin motor similarly low geared for wheel size) - that they got higher average speeds in hilly country?

Frank

 

[Matt]

An excellent review Aldby. Does this mean there may potentially be a used cytronex up for sale soon

 

[Cyclezee]

Too many issues to comment on individually, but I will attempt to respond to most of them.

To start with and as Flecc has said previously, the Cytronex represents a new and third category of e-bike, a sporting bike with assistance, call it what you will.
Currently it stands alone in this class, apart from the impressive Tongxin conversion by Frank9755, which looked really good until it suffered reliability problems.

With regard to which bike I choose to ride, it comes down to if I am riding with my wife on her Agattu or taking to some of the rougher cycle routes or forestry tracks, maybe do a bit of shopping or just cruising. Then it would be the Agattu. If I am in a hurry to get somewhere, travelling light within a 10 mile radius, despite me not achieving a very high average speed, or I'm on my own, then I would probably use the Cytronex. I like the lightweight, manouverability and responsive handling of the Cytronex.
As yet, I have not tried it out on seriously hilly terrain, many of you might be surprised that there are a few quite steep hills in and around Milton Keynes. Next time I go up to the Lake District, which I visit every few months, I will take both bikes with me. I have not cycled there since I was a child, so that should prove a good test of man and machine.
Finally, I have no intention of parting with any of my bikes in the near future..........unless something irresistible comes along!

J hn

 

[HarryB]

I am very surprised you say the Tongxin motor is not powerful compared to the Agattu. Certainly when I modified my Torq with the 190rpm version, it was very fast and I rarely wanted for more power (to be fair I don't live in a very hilly area). Certainly it made the Agattu seem very slow in comparison. Perhaps it is something to do with the Cytronex installation but I cannot see how, as they are not limiting power in any way.

The main difference between my version and the Cytronex is that they use the 175rpm version (of course my version had a throttle and weighed about 25kg). I would expect the Cytronex to be a better hill climber. The main difference in use (for me) is that the Tongxin motored ebike responds much better to your input. For example: you are riding along at 15-16mph and perhaps overtaking a bus when it pulls out. With the Tongxin motor a bit of your input would see you at 22-23mph with relative ease. The same cannot be said of the Agattu - no way are my legs powerful enough for this sort of speed at short notice. In this way the Agattu is similar to a restricted Torq 1 - it just needs more effort. In terms of average speeds - the 190rpm version would average about 16 mph, provided there was no traffic. I would cruise at about 18 mph, just above the cut out speed.

I think I will have to take a trip to Winchester over the summer to get an idea of what the Cytronex is really like. But perhaps my Agattu is faulty!

 

[JohnInStockie]

..... the Cytronex represents a new and third category of e-bike, a sporting bike with assistance........Currently it stands alone in this class.....unless something irresistible comes along!

From the model I saw at 50C, it wont be alone for long. They had the 2009 'sports' version of the Pro-Connect as a demo bike which I was lucky enough to try out. It looks and feels very like the Cytronex (except obviously with a Panasonic Motor) with a very light thin frame, Road tyres, derrailiuer gears, and it probably weighed about 14-15Kg. It was very fast, I'd start saving now then John if I were you

 

[JohnInStockie]

...With the Tongxin motor a bit of your input would see you at 22-23mph with relative ease.

Not his model Harry, in normal mode it helps at a round 12.5 mph and in high power cut out at 15.5 -ish.

I think I will have to take a trip to Winchester over the summer to get an idea of what the Cytronex is really like. But perhaps my Agattu is faulty!

I hope you do it would be interesting to hear your comments on the way it has been done. On the Agattu side, have you change the rear sprocket yet?

John

 

[frank9755]

I am very surprised you say the Tongxin motor is not powerful compared to the Agattu. Certainly when I modified my Torq with the 190rpm version, it was very fast and I rarely wanted for more power (to be fair I don't live in a very hilly area). ... The main difference between my version and the Cytronex is that they use the 175rpm version (of course my version had a throttle and weighed about 25kg). I would expect the Cytronex to be a better hill climber.

I think that's exactly it, Hal. It's the speed of the motor that is too low for John (Aldby)'s terrain, not lack of power as such. I hadn't realised the Cytronex was a 175 rpm; I thought it was the 190. That explains why he is averaging 13 mph rather than 15 - but with lots of unused torque! I suspect you, or I, would find the same in London; that we wanted higher gearing for a bit more speed, and could trade some hill-climbing potential.

 

[flecc]

But on that point, I think the company name gives the clue, nohills.com.

Mark seems to have intended it primarily as a normal bike with help on hills, and having it higher geared with the 190 rpm motor would compromise that when really steep hills are encountered. Somehills.com wouldn't be quite the same.

A really light legal hub-motor bike will never be adequate for all circumstances, so there has to be a compromise somewhere.
.

 

[HarryB]

Not his model Harry, in normal mode it helps at a round 12.5 mph and in high power cut out at 15.5 -ish.



I hope you do it would be interesting to hear your comments on the way it has been done. On the Agattu side, have you change the rear sprocket yet?

John

Yes I have changed the sprocket to 18 tooth as it was impossibly undergeared for me.

The point about the Tongxin is that WITH YOUR INPUT it will scoot up to 22-23 mph with ease. With all other hub geared bikes you fight it at anything above the cut off speed - not so with the Tongxin and makes it a very attractive option as an 'assisted' normal bike. I certainly find the Agattu does feel heavy to ride fast all the same, but as I say it may have a fault somewhere. Having just re-built a light weight racer I find it amazing how wasteful electric bikes are. It it very enjoyable when you feel all your effort is going into forward motion - on the flat at any rate - hills are another matter.

 

[flecc]

I certainly find the Agattu does feel heavy to ride fast all the same, but as I say it may have a fault somewhere.

I very much doubt that it's a fault Hal. From everything you've been posting I think it doesn't suit your riding style and ability. Clearly you are quite a strong cyclist to prefer the Tongxin over the much more powerful Torq motor, most of us quite content with the motor performance to 20 mph or so and not bothered about pedalling above that against gear drag.

In a sense the Panasonic system works against the rider where speed is wanted as I observed in the article on it, as the rider speeds up, the help from the motor reduces. Above assist speeds, although it's a low drag system, it's a heavy bike and will never pedal and roll like a lightweight sports bike. I've found it fine for pedalling without power at utility speeds like 12 to 14 mph on the flat, but I wouldn't expect to cycle at 20 mph and above on the flat.
.

 

[frank9755]

But on that point, I think the company name gives the clue, nohills.com.

Mark seems to have intended it primarily as a normal bike with help on hills, and having it higher geared with the 190 rpm motor would compromise that when really steep hills are encountered. Somehills.com wouldn't be quite the same.

A really light legal hub-motor bike will never be adequate for all circumstances, so there has to be a compromise somewhere.
.

Completely agree with that. I think we must acknowldge that Mark has been pretty explicit about the market segment he is targeting, and (given reliability) his bike seems to meet the needs of that segment very well.

That's part of the challenge of electric bikes - working out what configuration of motor speed, battery size, etc best meets your personal needs, and what you can do without - and it is very hard for anyone; impossible for a beginner!

 

[Chris_Bike]

Hi Everyone,

I have desisted from contributing to this thread so far since, like most of you, I cannot regularly ride both bikes. I have ridden the Pro-Connect at Presteigne (indeed, I went there to buy one) and I liked it a lot – I just liked the Trek more. However, there are a couple of points that I can contribute.

Harry is certainly right that the Cytronex shines best on hills. I leave the bike on low power most of the time, where the motor cuts out at 12.5 rpm. Since I find it hard to ride the bike slower than that on the flat, assistance is confined to pulling away from lights etc (where it is great). I have just returned from a round trip to the pub in Mid-Wales – 15 miles with a descent of 720 feet on the way out and a corresponding climb on the way back. In fact, we took a circuitous route back that took us uphill one side of the valley only to descend before climbing again. My average speed was 12.8 mph (max 33.8, but I had to use brakes a lot on descents due to poor road surfaces). I think the fact that my average here is similar to John’s in MK (and I do know some of the hills round there John!) suggests that the bike does especially well in the hills. BTW the battery was fine, despite last being charged the previous week.

The second point I would like to make concerns cadence. I continue to be flattered by the notion that I am fit, but it is true that I have ridden bikes (on and off) for most of my life. Having said that, in the past 40 years, my annual mileage will have been below 300 miles many more times that it was higher. However, as a schoolboy, I was taught to peddle. Coaches of young cyclists today will encourage cadences of 90 - 100+ rpm and I still feel most comfortable at about 70rpm. I am sure that I remember from previous posts that the Panasonic unit wants you to peddle much slower and that might be a significant factor for some riders.

My advice to potential purchasers remains the same as ever – try both (if you can) before you buy.

 

[HarryB]

I very much doubt that it's a fault Hal. From everything you've been posting I think it doesn't suit your riding style and ability. Clearly you are quite a strong cyclist to prefer the Tongxin over the much more powerful Torq motor, most of us quite content with the motor performance to 20 mph or so and not bothered about pedalling above that against gear drag.

In a sense the Panasonic system works against the rider where speed is wanted as I observed in the article on it, as the rider speeds up, the help from the motor reduces. Above assist speeds, although it's a low drag system, it's a heavy bike and will never pedal and roll like a lightweight sports bike. I've found it fine for pedalling without power at utility speeds like 12 to 14 mph on the flat, but I wouldn't expect to cycle at 20 mph and above on the flat.
.

I must be careful what I say - I might get booted off the forum if I don't appreciate the electric assist enough! I think the truth it that maybe as I get fitter the limitations of the electric bikes become more apparent. It is not that I don't appreciate the help on the hills (or even when I am tired), it is just that I don't want the bike to get in the way of my efforts. I will stick with the Agattu for now - I am sure it will be come into its own over winter. It is not that I am unduly unhappy with it, more that my expectations were way too high. I also think I would suit the pro-connect better but didn't want to pay more or wait longer. The stripped down, lightweight version might be the one to go for when the time comes for replacement.

 

[frank9755]

I also think I would suit the pro-connect better but didn't want to pay more or wait longer. The stripped down, lightweight version might be the one to go for when the time comes for replacement.

I have only very limited experience of riding a Panasonic bike so am no expert, but I suspect that the Pro-Connect, stripped down or otherwise, would be pretty similar to your Agattu. I think it's the characteristics of the Panasonic system which dictate how the bike handles.

 

[Cyclezee]

From the model I saw at 50C, it wont be alone for long. They had the 2009 'sports' version of the Pro-Connect as a demo bike which I was lucky enough to try out. It looks and feels very like the Cytronex (except obviously with a Panasonic Motor) with a very light thin frame, Road tyres, derrailiuer gears, and it probably weighed about 14-15Kg. It was very fast, I'd start saving now then John if I were you

Oh dear John, now you have started something! Any spy photos?
It will probably be twice the price of a Cytronex and not so 'sexy', but how will it perform and should I place an order now if I want one some time before 2010
If money were no object, I would probably import the fast version of the Flyer S-Series, illegal in the UK, but by the time I got it here it would probably have cost as much as the 3 bikes I already own.

As I said before, the Cytronex is a good bike, I was a bit disappointed with it at first as it differed from my expectations and any other electric bike I had ridden, but it is definitely growing on me and I am much happier with my purchase now.
I was delighted with my Agattus from day one and they were everything I expected, that probably stems from my Lafree experiences, so I knew pretty much what to expect from them, and they delivered.

There is nothing scientific in my posts, just personal opinions for what they are worth.

J hn