K.I.S.S ~ i.e * no batteries required * an intro to

[YsFLY]

Hello to all of you,
* MAN I WISH IT WAS THAT SIMPLE *
1st my name is Lloyd, but I would rather you used YsFLY from here on in.

OK~ So What am I about, well~ I contend that it is possible to power a bike *without a battery* .
Not altogether sure how just yet but have what most of you will have heard before - belief i.e. " I just know it's possible " .

My problem is that my ignorance is also legendary, and in order to achieve that impossibility I am going to need the sort of physics brain that will allow for an Idiots approach to doing so ~ an awful lot of Ys & Ys not flying about~ in other words.

Now I know most of the bike posts here rely on batteries for motive power and mine does too, BUT I've found that a replacement battery will cost about £300
AND THINK~ not that that's out of order but that It's possible to produce an alternative for that sort of money, and one to boot that will not need replacing EVER !

I would like to look at those alternatives ~ as said, and am wondering if anyone a) has the necessary skills and b) if any else is interested in this sort of conundrum .... SOLVED.

IF SO~ Please respond here with .... ? & oh yes I have given it quite a bit of thought just no idea about the physics (numbers) involved.

REGARDS
LLOYD
aka YsFLY

 

[Alan Quay]

I have seen these battery-less systems in the past. The most popular ones use energy that is stored within the human rider, and delivered to the bike through his/her legs.

 

[YsFLY]

GREAT ! a sense of humour, right from the start. ( a little sad though since it favours the down side )

 

[D8ve]

you started with joke question. if you researched W C Grace used kite power for a carrage in 1800;s and motor cycles are nearly as old.
otherwise you cannot beat the laws of Physics captain..

 

[YsFLY]

Strange,
I seem to remember A POPE ~ saying something like * You can't break the laws of God * captain. AND look at you now..... an E-man having done just that !

 

[flecc]

Well YsFly, the fundamental is that the motor on an e-bike needs electricity, so the question really is, "How can electricity be delivered in an independent mobile environment". There's three known and developed ways:

1) Chemically rechargeable: This is the battery method, so that is out.

2) Solar: Using daylight to generate the electricty in solar cells. Unfortunately the area of solar cells needed to run an e-bike motor is far beyond anything a bike can carry, so that's out too.

3) Chemically generated: This is by fuel cells, using either methane or hydrogen with a catalyst and oxygen from the air. This generates the electricity and some surplus water and is practical. Unfortunately it's more expensive than a battery to instal and maintain, and the hydrogen or methane is a more expensive added running cost than the mains electricity used to charge our batteries.

So I'm afraid a new battery is your lowest cost option.

 

[trex]

solar cells come close second. Polysilicon panels now reach new low price of less than 50p per watt.
All you need is 100W wearable solar panel for e-biking.
Also, there is plenty of energy currently wasted in the surrounding. A strong magnet to get yourself towed by the car in front perhaps?

 

[jazper53]

Maybe getting confused with F1, where I understand 'kenetic energy recovery system'(KERS) generates energy from the brakes, a no go on push bikes as energy recovered would be miniscule, at the moment no systems as yet will give U something for nothing, maybe when perpetual motion has been finally discovered, and developed, it may become possible.

 

[YsFLY]

@ last~ getting all the *can't be done because of* out of the way, inevitable I suppose.

AND~ to you flecc, thanks for getting systematic, sort of what i had hoped would happen right from the start.

NOW~ would you all mind if *we* start by braking the conundrum down to it's constituent parts, assuming all do in fact currently have a motor attached, and that for a reason revolving around the benefits of said motor.
1} Air- all around , sometimes, oft times in fact directly into face @ a considerable force.
2} Ground- often a hill, and solid reason for a motor in the 1st place.
3} Legs- and as has been pointed out a battery in themselves, but one that tires, gets old and dies.
4} Body~ a living machine, much preferring a motor attached to another machanical machine called a Bike.
5} A frame, variable in hight, length, mass, like wise wheels.

6} Electricity ~ found @moment to be simplest way to power said mechanical machine. Legs the cheapest way once machine purchased that is .
7} If 2 ways, Y not 3 or 4 or 5 and yes i know it verges on nonsense, BUT THE PRINCIPAL ~ DOESN"T.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It can be done very easily. You only have to think a little out-of-the box.
Electric hub-motors make very efficient generators, so you put one motor in each wheel. You connect the back one in the normal way, but with only a small battery to get it started, You then connect the front motor to a 3 phase rectifier, and then the DC from the rectifier to the battery. As soon as you start with the back motor, the front one will start generating, and it'll charge the battery, so your small battery will never run out and you can ride forever without pedalling.
QED

 

[Ettica]

Vertical wind generator attached to bike.
15mph is apparently average for commercial wind turbines! I do that each day!! yeyy!

 

[YsFLY]

*An engineer is a person that can do for a penny what any fool can do for a pound.*

BUT~ try paying a penny.

As for your reply, Ys no one done it then ?
AND~ for someone who posts a quote such as you have, i would have expected better.

 

[GaRRy]

you started with joke question. if you researched W C Grace used kite power for a carrage in 1800's.

I think you mean George Pocock. As a user of the modern equivalent can assure you not very practical on the road (try going under a bridge )

As for OP. If a cheaper option than a battery exists then pretty certain we would all be using it !!!

 

[Jimod]

It can be done very easily. You only have to think a little out-of-the box.
Electric hub-motors make very efficient generators, so you put one motor in each wheel. You connect the back one in the normal way, but with only a small battery to get it started, You then connect the front motor to a 3 phase rectifier, and then the DC from the rectifier to the battery. As soon as you start with the back motor, the front one will start generating, and it'll charge the battery, so your small battery will never run out and you can ride forever without pedalling.
QED

There you go! And you yourself said it couldn't be done.

You could even take some solar panels formed into a cube with a small bulb inside. This bulb will allow the panels to make electricity to run your bike, car, home and train.

The problem is the panels can't produce more electricity than the bulb is using. Unless you can find a catalyst to make them do so. If you find such a catalyst that works, you'll be a billionaire.

Just remember you got the idea from me and I want my royalties.


P.S. I'm stuck at home getting the roof worked on so I had nothing better to do than think that up.

 

[YsFLY]

SO help and not a joke, not possible with you lot then ?

Shame really, I had in the back (now front) of my mind the hope that there would be 1 or 2 that would see the benefits of braking it down, if not for me then for all those youngsters trying to get their minds around all the *horrible Physics* required.
BY~ using *the bike* as a focus.

Sorry to have troubled you.

BUT please go ahead... who knows, some other idiot may be able to prick your intelligence better than I've been able

REGARDS
LLOYD
aka YsFLY

 

[flecc]

As for your reply, Ys no one done it then ?

Because like any perpetual motion device, it won't work. The motor acting as a generator converting the drive from the other motor into current will only be 80% efficient at best. So the four fifths of recovered energy being fed to the small battery will suffer another conversion efficiency loss, i.e. electricity to chemistry. Finally what's left coming back out of the battery after chemical to electrical conversion will suffer a further 20% loss due to the 80% efficiency of the drive motor. The total loss in the loop will probably be over 50%, so the system grinds to a halt very quickly.

 

[Ettica]

you asked the question.

You probably have something in mind but you are not willing to elucidate.

I don't understand what you expect.

 

[Jimod]

SO help and not a joke, not possible with you lot then ?




REGARDS
LLOYD
aka YsFLY

My idea was perfectly sensible, you just need to find the proper catalyst or chemical to make the panels more than 100% efficient.

It's not my fault if you don't want to try.

P.S lighten up., it's way too warm and I've just painted my fence.

 

[YsFLY]

you asked the question.

You probably have something in mind but you are not willing to elucidate.

I don't understand what you expect.

Sorry ~ It's not that I'm not willing to elucidate, I am and have been (i think) and yes I do have something in mind AND it is something already proven albeit currently with problems.

AND~ yes i do hesitate in being specific at the moment, not because I'm not sure but because as you can see, besides the vested interest in sell batteries there are also more than a few ever ready to rubbish anything not thought of themselves.

IT ( my idea ) also needs as I've said a specific sort of skill, besides one that requires *in the same box* sort of thinking, and that is to brake it down to a starting point beyond the electric method already proven.

FOR EXAMPLE~

ALL starts with * the crank * ~mostly limited to a range(diameter) tried and proven as best, but one that needs an understanding of the physics that go into powering it and yes i know each of us is differs in the amount of force that can be brought to bear.
So~ to start ~ perhaps we can begin with an average weight of 75kilos, a radius of 17cm and ? well each bike weighs different BUT with battery most i've seen start at about 20-25 kilos.
SO~ ?

 

[Ettica]

Feel like I am on QI (Alan Davies especially) but here goes.... 'bigger chainwheel'?