Innocent until proved guilty?

[neptune]

A lad of eighteen, who is a friend of mine applied for a job as a shelf stacker in a supermarket. He was required to fill in a form. One of the questions was " Do you have any spent convictions?" Under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, certain convictions become "Spent" after a fixed amount of time. Length of time is dependent on the penalty passed by the court. It is not required to declare such convictions on a job application, so why this question?

A female friend of mine once applied for a job as a cleaner in the local Police Station. A question that she was asked was "have you ever been charged with a criminal offence?" Note that she was not asked if she had been convicted, just if she had been charged.

In each case, what happened to justice?

 

[oldtom]

In each case, what happened to justice?

You may well ask, Neptune! Many years ago, most people in the UK took some pride in the seeming impartiality and soundness of the British justice system. Legislation was introduced to protect ex-offenders from the perfectly understandable but futile discrimination of prospective employers where there was no particular need to divulge many types of offence in applying for work.

Times have changed and things have moved on. For the better, I'm told, though I'm not so sure.

Your topic reminded me of another angle in a similar vein and that was when one of my sons was thinking of changing jobs many years ago. I read an ad for the City of London police in one of the broadsheets and I thought he might be interested enough to apply.

To that end, I rang the number of their recruitment office, (in the ad), for an application form for my son. The somewhat curt lady with a very posh voice at the other end began to ask me questions as if I were the applicant, to determine whether I seemed fit for their purposes. When I managed to get her to understand that I was applying on behalf of my son who was abroad at that time, she then took some basic details, name, age and so on, before asking me how tall he is.

Knowing full well that all police forces, (as they used to be called), had long-since dropped the minimum height requirement, I was a little taken aback at this but told her he's 6'-4'' and asked her why she wanted to know, given my understanding of the revised recruitment requirements. She then seemed to be suddenly on the back foot as she managed to nervously stammer something about the fact that,' It is the City police sir and we like to have taller people given the nature of the job in the square mile.'

My son duly received the application form but decided to make his living as a professional golfer instead - he hasn't looked back.

Going back to your question Neptune, in my view, justice is a concept, a very desirable premise but as it no longer exists in many areas and in many ways, it is not reality.

Tom

 

[flecc]

A lad of eighteen, who is a friend of mine applied for a job as a shelf stacker in a supermarket. He was required to fill in a form. One of the questions was " Do you have any spent convictions?" Under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, certain convictions become "Spent" after a fixed amount of time. Length of time is dependent on the penalty passed by the court. It is not required to declare such convictions on a job application, so why this question?

A female friend of mine once applied for a job as a cleaner in the local Police Station. A question that she was asked was "have you ever been charged with a criminal offence?" Note that she was not asked if she had been convicted, just if she had been charged.

In each case, what happened to justice?

Not uncommon these days Neptune, justice taking a back seat.

The justice system itself has been greatly corrupted since 1993 in order to increase the rate of convictions, leading to the present day when even the Home Office believe that some 3000 innocent persons are in prison at any one time. Shockingly that's 4% of the prison population, every 25th prisoner.

As further proof, a onetime Home Secretary was heard to say "I don't care how many innocent men are in prison, just so long as there's not one abuser left on the streets".
.

 

[neptune]

Thanks for both replies. When I was a lad, the world was a much more cosy and just place, or at least so it seemed to me. The whole point of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act was to try to give people a fresh start. Part of the act as I understand it says that an employer cannot bar an applicant for a job on the basis of a spent conviction. That being the case, why ask about them? One problem in society as I see it is the lack of empathy. I think that any person training to be a magistrate should spend a month in Prison as part of that training. We need Police and Magistrates, that`s a fact. We also need a system that is fair and seen to be fair.

 

[mike killay]

I thought that only certain sensitive professions could ask about spent convictions.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The spent convictions rule doesn't apply to certain jobs, teaching being one of them. I can imagine that policeman would be another and anything to do with intelligence services.

 

[JohnCade]

That’s right. But shelf stackers don’t meet those criteria. These sound like just another bunch of p*ss takers who don’t know or care about the law. The same sort of ignorance that bans guide dogs from supermarkets.

 

[Alan Quay]

Since you don't have to tell anyone (other than a select few) about spent convictions, your friend could simply answer 'No'.

 

[flecc]

Since you don't have to tell anyone (other than a select few) about spent convictions, your friend could simply answer 'No'.

I understand that many answer "no", even with unspent convictions.

One can hardly blame them for taking that risk. They've been released into the community and should have an equal chance in such things as employment where the conviction isn't relevant to the employment sought.

For civil protection the offence of non-disclosure need only apply where there is direct relevance, anything more is an abuse of civil rights. Motor insurers are major abusers in this connection.
.

 

[Lancslass]

TI think that any person training to be a magistrate should spend a month in Prison as part of that training. We need Police and Magistrates, that`s a fact. We also need a system that is fair and seen to be fair.

I don't think you'd get many people volunteering to be magistrates if this was part of their training (it's unpaid, after all).

In fact I have been a magistrate for 10 years, we do visit prisons as part of our training so we know what it's like in there. We also visit Police stations to see where our overnight clients have to be detained.

 

[JohnCade]

Bit like the colonel inspecting the other ranks dining arrangements. “ Any complaints?” As the sergeant major looks on with a beady eye. Anyone who did have the temerity to complain would have found himself is deep merde after the brass left.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I remember on the landing card entering the USA you were asked whether you were a terrorist and/or intending to commit a terrorist act whilst in the USA,does anyone answer YES to that question.
I also remember that the form should take X mins to complete,you could complain to some American bureau,if it took too long.
KudosDave