How did you arrive at your eu decision?

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I,ve got a bit fed up with being told how and why ,as an out voter, I arrived at my decision. There are just so many assumptions made, perhaps on both sides.
Please don't start the normal knocking individual posters reasoning. Just read and offer your own process if you have one.

Mine
Being a small investor with Hargreaves Lansdown, they wrote quite a while since offering a report. After reading I also got the free online guide from Woodruff. After these, to be fair I was still undecided, but at this point noticed a gulf between information from government and that from the guides.I did think government were misinforming voters. I then read Mark Carney,s full report. Then started reading on here.
Had a think about what eu had achieved. Well 5 countries almost bankrupt and policies , single currency more a burden than help.
Looked at help, involvement in conflict eu had been. Not much. Then considered crime and poverty we,d witnessed in France ,Spain and Greece and the extreme business difficulty we,d experienced within eu. ( especially France)
So voted out. Nothing at all to do with migration.
This is a simplistic precis , but neither gullible or misguided ??( in my opinion)

 

[flecc]

As you may have seen when I've posted this before, for me it was about the end target of a country called Europe, which I think desirable due to the way the world is shaping up.

In doing that I recognised and have acknowledged that the road to that end will be very rocky indeed, but I think it possible.

And I also recognise that it cannot be achieved entirely democratically, so a core power is necessary to drive the project. That is of course the EU Commission, one representative from each country with a common objective.

I'm prepared to suffer what to me are minor problems meanwhile in the interests of the objective.
.

 

[D8ve]

I'm pro Europe. Sovereignty isn't an issue as I believe the laws are fundamentally the same I've 50 kph=30 mph no real difference.
Immigration is good for us and a source of skilled labour.
Unskilled labour should be done by the unskilled uk population first, if they will do it.
Fear of global conflict , as part of Europe we are stronger together.
That also applies to global competition.
Together we could improve Europe getting stronger and improving the rule of law even in Italy (eventually )

 

[oldgroaner]

Born during the war, childhood in a ruined city in poverty, worked before health and safety, have asbestosis, anxious to keep Europe together and avoid the same happening again
My reason for not voting leave?
Pretty obvious really the future is for Europe to become a federal state, is the only way to ensure peace and make a big enough economic unit to complete in the modern world.
It has lots of problems? So what? They can be solved, we might have achieved more by not sending idiots to act as saboteurs to the EU parliament.

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[KTM Bike Industries UK]

great idea for a thread Flud!

From my point of view.

1) I've run an import / distribution company for just over 10 years now, in that time we've worked with brands in the USA, Australia and the Far East, its no co-incidence that we now just work with European suppliers. Trade within the EU, is easy, admin free, quick and the courier costs are low. Its a brilliant place to work.

2) We have worked as Agents for a number of the brands we work with. The EU Law that protects sales agents is very powerful and I suspect that its more than we'd get if we were reliant on UK governments to project our role.

I've had to take a company in Germany to court over this, and the whole process would have been a nightmare had it not been for the EU wide laws and guidance.

3) I spend a lot of time in Europe and I see how it's brought people together and mixed them up with is great for everyone. One colleague from Poland recently described it as the world's nicest empire. Brought together for positive reasons, and not as a result of power or land grabbing wars. The fact we can leave if we want to, is by its very nature a great thing.

4) I have a host of friends with direct experience of the positives provided by our European membership, including its support of Universities, tourism projects like MTB venues, Science, Music and tonnes of other things. If the Ersmus program is stopped it'll be a tradegy. I have good friends who are from Spain living here, and my wife's best friend is a bosnian refuggee who has been here since the 90s.

I could go on about the positive reasons why I voted remain, I have lots.

However I did go into this thing with my eyes open. I was happy to listen and I would have changed my gut feeling if anyone could have given me a reason that the UK should vote leave. No one could.

And looking at the advice of pretty much everyone I trust in business, the public eye etc etc, they were all saying stay.

So now onto the reasons I didn't vote leave.

1) I'm not genius, but I could see the 3 key claims and aims of the leave campaign were either false or a bad idea.

a) fundamentally I believe immigration is a good thing, and any problems it causes are the fault of a lack of investment, not the migrants.
b) the numbers being banded around about investment in NHS etc were clearly lies.
c) People argue the EU isn't democratic. It only takes a quick bit of work to discover its A LOT more democratic than the UK.

2) I think the UK is a great place to live and we're very lucky, why would I risk that on a punt, with no plan.

The EU puts loads of money into great projects in the UK, there is no way a right wing conservative goverment will support the areas that the EU funding went to.

And then the other fundamental problem I had.

If you told me, Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Donald Trump etc etc were proposing anything, I'd think it was a bad idea, before I even knew what it was.

 

[damian]

Thanks for the idea for the thread, fludd. Hopefully people will get to give their opinions without being 'shouted down'
For me I have seen benefits of eu membership, as Ireland north and south has benefited greatly from eu investment.
Sovereignty didn't feature. Maybe because I'm Irish there is no sense of an empire lost, and there is an understanding of needing other countries to accept is in.
I probably trust the European parliament more than Our own and view the commission as unelected as the house of lords.

The remain arguments came across as scaremongering so I didn't listen.
The leave arguments didn't ring true. I didn't trust their reasons for curbing immigration and don't believe that nhs is in problems because of them - I think that is austerity.
The 'we will use the money for x and y' was obviously a lie, if only because those making the promises aren't the government.

I teach at a university Taekwondo club and make friends from many European countries. I like that. Simple as that. Nice people are nice, so why keep them out?

Finally I hate Nigel farage. I think he is a bad person



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[mike killay]

I wonder how many of you yes voters live in cities, insulated from the pernicious effects of the EU.
To say how wonderful immigration is, is actually offensive to many of us that live in the run down industrial wastelands of the UK. If you saw just how dejected our youngsters are at not being able to get a proper job, how anxious our parents are as the schools filled to overflowing, to see how worried our pensioners at overfull surgery appointments, you would hang your heads in shame.
At Ebbw Vale, there are proud signs claiming that the EU paid for re-generation.
Lie, we paid for it. Every £3 we send to the EU, we only get £1 back. The rest is spent in other countries by an organisation that can never get its books passed by the accountants.

 

[flecc]

I wonder how many of you yes voters live in cities, insulated from the pernicious effects of the EU.

Mike, Flud has started an excellent thread asking for the reasons why we voted as we did. Please don't turn it into another attacking thread, sniping at those who voted differently. The campaign is over.
.

 

[mike killay]

OK

 

[Croxden]

Being undecided, I was nudged into remaining by flecc's reasoning.
I stand by my decision.

 

[KeithMac]

I could see in the space of 20 years the EU Superstate coming to fruition, one government fits all, one euro army, dictated to by Brussels.

We would HAVE to take the Euro at some point, this is fundamental to the ideal of the EU.

We voted for the trade agreement but the rest of the concessions have been chipped away at year on year so hopefully no one would notice.

Now or never for me, we will never get another chance..

 

[mike killay]

I suppose that if you liked the EU direction,
i.e. Superstate, not a Federation.
One currency, one size fits all, then fine vote remain
But just look at all the separatist and semi-separatist movements in Europe and the language preservation societies,
It just seems odd that whilst various peoples across Europe are trying to preserve older languages, assert their independent identity that they should acquiesce to the current EU project.
But even within the remain camp, there are many calling for EU reform. Most of the EU hardliners have set their face dead against this.
Frankly, I don't hold out much hope for the EU.
Which is a pity, because if it could totally dump its current ethos and become more of a free trade area such as the old Common Market, l am sure that it would enjoy far more support.

 

[lectureral]

I too think it's a good idea. I think I was anti-EU until I studied EU law as part of my law degree. After that I married one of those immigrants they are complaining about - a french lecturer - we met at the job interview - luckily they gave us both jobs and offices close to each other. My children were born in Switzerland (wife working in Geneva by then) and I was surprised to find out that they could not be British citizens because I was born in the US while my Dad did a short stint of work there in the 50s - half their forebears are British for unknowable generations but they have only French passports (puts nationality in its place in my view). So all-in-all I guess the whole sovereignty argument falls flat with me.

 

[lectureral]

Further, this is pretty close to my thoughts if amy Breviter wants to understand the other side:

https://medium.com/extra-extra/a-note-to-my-friends-who-voted-leave-85b8c169b0ce#.yyi70wspg

 

[oldgroaner]

I could see in the space of 20 years the EU Superstate coming to fruition, one government fits all, one euro army, dictated to by Brussels.

We would HAVE to take the Euro at some point, this is fundamental to the ideal of the EU.

We voted for the trade agreement but the rest of the concessions have been chipped away at year on year so hopefully no one would notice.

Now or never for me, we will never get another chance..

And now we will end up with it as an enemy when we could have been part of it
Smart move eh?

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[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

And now we will end up with it as an enemy when we could have been part of it
Smart move eh?

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OG
Don't judge on here,try and keep this one for folk to comment free of criticism. We might get more of an insight then. Cheers.

 

[KeithMac]

And now we will end up with it as an enemy when we could have been part of it
Smart move eh?

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Depends if you wanted to be part of it, there would be no vote/ choice. Not very democratic in my view..

 

[oldgroaner]

OG
Don't judge on here,try and keep this one for folk to comment free of criticism. We might get more of an insight then. Cheers.

as you wish

 

[oldgroaner]

Depends if you wanted to be part of it, there would be no vote/ choice. Not very democratic in my view..

Discussion discontinued on this thread as requested

 

[EddiePJ]

I had pretty much only one reason for not voting in, and that concern was with European law. After I stopped taking on board negative information, and actually took the time to research my concerns, it soon came to pass that I was being mislead, and this turned my out vote to a yes vote.

I have zero concerns about migration/immigration, as to me we don't own this world/country, and anyone and everyone has a right to be where they so desire.
My wife is half German, my Mother-in-law came over here straight after WW2.
My family via marriage, is very multi cultural, and the same can be said of many friends.
I also don't and have never believed the claims that migrants are taking our jobs and claiming countless benefits. So this again, wasn't a concern of mine in respect of drawing voting conclusion.

The figure of 350 million pounds sterling being touted about also didn't ring true, nor did the info being spouted about the nhs. These two details drove me away from an exit vote.

My work in part relies on international investment by major companies, and 9/11 proved that instability of investment can be instant, and I had suspected, a no vote would have just the same impact, which it has, with companies that I deal with, now placing hold on orders. I also took the time to consider other peoples businesses and how an out vote would affect them. Each time the result came up negatively.
I took the time to speak to close friends living in Switzerland about business and free movement, and repeatedly mention was made to businesses leaving Switzerland, in favour of setting up in Germany. I also spoke to family and friends in Germany.

I also enjoy free movement within the EU, and figured that leaving could slow this process down. I figured that this could become more drawn out by leaving, and now after the event, we are considering getting German passports.

It was also a no brainer in respect of just what a bottomless pit of money that leaving would cost the UK, and this bottomless pit dragging on for countless years to come. The brother-in-law of one of best friends happens to be a world trade negotiator, and after he had finished detailing the amount of new job positions that would be required that no one was even qualified to do, the setting up and management of many new government departments that would be required, again with no one suitably qualified to fill the posts. It made absolutely no sense in my mind to leave.

Ultimately though, I felt that the one person who deserved to have a vote, and who would be affected the most, was my 17yr old daughter. I told her that I would vote in whichever direction that she chose, and being open minded, would respect her decision and vote accordingly. Thankfully she wanted to stay in. We had not previously discussed the subject, and she had based her opinion upon school lectures and talks, weighing up both sides of the debate. Staying within the EU, would also make her career choice easier.

I expect that there were many other reasons for my stay in vote, but for some reason my mind has gone blank, One quote that I did like and took on board was the following "The EU has flaws, but if you live in a house that has a broken front door, do you move house or repair it. You work on repairing it. " To me this was very reasoned argument for staying in. It seems better to work on what we have, especially as so many are so unhappy with things, that change might have been more forth coming.

As for the future, I still believe and hope that we won't be leaving, and that we will be seeing a general election by next February,with the winning party working to stay in. If this doesn't happen, then I will just have to be content and proud to hold my head up, to state that I had at least voted to do the right thing as I saw fit. I shall then move on and work forwards, but whilst there is a glimmer of hope that we will stay in, then I shall cling to it.

A plus side that I have heard about leaving the EU, is that whilst food prices will rise, variety of food will expand, as UK farmers will then be free to grow seasonal products that had previously been either restricted or stopped.

One thing that I suspect that would unit both leave and stay voters, is the opinion that campaigners and politicians for both side were an absolute disgrace.