Hill climbing with throttle kalkhoff alternative

[Tomtomato]

Having tried a few bikes, I stand by what I said: the crank-driven ones are usually the ones where assistance is the most integrated and seamless, and where the bike still feel like a bike.

This is because of the torque sensors used, but also because of the integration with the bike transmission (as opposed to a separate delivery of power).

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Having tried a few bikes, I stand by what I said: the crank-driven ones are usually the ones where assistance is the most integrated and seamless, and where the bike still feel like a bike.

This is because of the torque sensors used, but also because of the integration with the bike transmission (as opposed to a separate delivery of power).

We supply both kinds of electric bike to retailers all over the UK, so are completely unbiased on this subject. In fact it is in our interest to sell the more expensive crank drive models.

The truth of the matter is that crank drives have some advantages over hub drives and hub drives have some advantages over crank drives, it is absolutely not clear cut. In my experience more people are comfortable with hub than crank bikes.

I personally demonstrated both types to a couple yesterday, they really did not get on with the Bosch crank drive bikes but loved and bought the Wisper Torques.

Please don't be swayed by opinion here one way or the other. Always try both and decide for yourself.

All the best, David

 

[Jimod]

Having tried a few bikes, I stand by what I said: the crank-driven ones are usually the ones where assistance is the most integrated and seamless, and where the bike still feel like a bike.

This is because of the torque sensors used, but also because of the integration with the bike transmission (as opposed to a separate delivery of power).

Did you read the OP? The lady tires easily, why would you recommend a torque sensor to her?

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

To produce any cadence you must supply a torque. Question is at what torque is motor triggered into action.
On my yam cd that torque is very low but corresponding output will be low, if bike has gearing to use your low torque and motor,s low output all is fine.
I don't think cadence has anything to do with motor output on yam.
Pedal hard at high cadence produces same current surge as at low cadence. Pedal gently at any cadence produces low help.
Try all you can , on steep hills,ling climbs ,anywhere..then buy a CD, it copes with everything.

 

[trex]

To produce any cadence you must supply a torque. .

that's why she needs a twist and go throttle.
the DfT knows that, hence leaves a door ajar for a little longer.

I would throw in the mix the woosh Santana CD. Jimod has a Santana CD with 14A controller.
The new Santana CD has 20A controller and a throttle. It'll take her up Winnats without pedaling.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?santana-cd

 

[Wisper Bikes]

To produce any cadence you must supply a torque. Question is at what torque is motor triggered into action.
On my yam cd that torque is very low but corresponding output will be low, if bike has gearing to use your low torque and motor,s low output all is fine.
I don't think cadence has anything to do with motor output on yam.
Pedal hard at high cadence produces same current surge as at low cadence. Pedal gently at any cadence produces low help.
Try all you can , on steep hills,ling climbs ,anywhere..then buy a CD, it copes with everything.

I assume the Yam is similar to the Bosch? It may not be as sophisticated, but I don't know the Yam very well. I understand the Bosch drive takes torque applied to the pedals and cadence into consideration when setting the power, much like the Wisper Torque. On the Wisper if the pedals are not turning and the speed is 0 the computer will "know" the bike is not moving. The torque sensor signals are then magnified by the controller, asking the motor for more power than normal, perfect for a hill start. It also helps in producing a very natural and seamless riding experience.

All the best, David

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Having tried a few bikes, I stand by what I said: the crank-driven ones are usually the ones where assistance is the most integrated and seamless, and where the bike still feel like a bike.

This is because of the torque sensors used, but also because of the integration with the bike transmission (as opposed to a separate delivery of power).

Sorry, but you're still talking ball-cox.

Firstly, the power will feel much more natural if it's provided directly in the wheel. Many people would notice the tension in the chain from a crank-drive as a detriment to gear-changing and the general feel of the bike.

There's many hub-motored bikes with torque and cadence sensors integrated into sophisticated control systems, that give the bike a natural feel - much smoother and more unobtrusive than what you get with crank-drives.

Please go and try a Kalkhoff Xion, KTM Panasonic, Heinzmann or anything like those, then come back and tell us you've changed your mind.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I assume the Yam is similar to the Bosch? It may not be as sophisticated, but I don't know the Yam very well. I understand the Bosch drive takes torque applied to the pedals and cadence into consideration when setting the power, much like the Wisper Torque. On the Wisper if the pedals are not turning and the speed is 0 the computer will "know" the bike is not moving. The torque sensor signals are then magnified by the controller, asking the motor for more power than normal, perfect for a hill start. It also helps in producing a very natural and seamless riding experience.

All the best, David

I,ve only rode Bosch short distance si not sure, but would like to know exactly what you mean by taking cadence into account. Yes zero cadence switches system off on Bosch ( not sure it does on yam, I can put current into motor standing in static pedal ( but don't)
Once moving why take cadence into account??/

 

[trex]

nothing beats a throttle on a hill start.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Sorry, but you're still talking ball-cox.

Firstly, the power will feel much more natural if it's provided directly in the wheel. Many people would notice the tension in the chain from a crank-drive as a detriment to gear-changing and the general feel of the bike.

There's many hub-motored bikes with torque and cadence sensors integrated into sophisticated control systems, that give the bike a natural feel - much smoother and more unobtrusive than what you get with crank-drives.

Please go and try a Kalkhoff Xion, KTM Panasonic, Heinzmann or anything like those, then come back and tell us you've changed your mind.

No he is not. He,s saying it as he sees it..and having tried a few I totally agree with him.
The bolux bit is saying bike feels more natural with power in wheel....
That writes off every motorbike...

The power delivery with every cd I,ve tried is as poster says seemlesss..

I sometimes wonder why you are so obsessed with promoting hub and deriding crank ??? It makes no sense at all..yes both have qualities but poster you say is talking bolux lists what many see ( especially with Bosch) as one of its fantastic qualities. Its smoothness and natural operation.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

nothing beats a throttle on a hill start.

Especially illegal ones.

 

[trex]

Especially illegal ones.

there is no need to ride an illegal bike nowadays.
if you are talking about the power of a 20A controller, hill start power is not limited, only the assistance you get when you reach the 25km/h limit that must be reduced to zero.
The throttle replaces the sophisticated software and sensors in European bikes and actually is a lot more natural than all European bikes that I have tried. You can easily keep up within a group with the throttle 10 times more easily than with a TS bike, especially if you are not very good with gears.
On the question of CD versus hub, which one is best? on Chinese bikes, I'd say BPM hubs, on European bikes, I'd say CD.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

nothing beats a throttle on a hill start.

I agree, it should have the same effect as a Torque sensor. However.... now, legal throttles are set to 4mph. The 4mph throttle feature should only be used for pushing a bike when not riding. Currently the law on this is very fuzzy.

Strictly speaking the rider should not be on the bike when the 4 kph throttle is activated, clarification on this point is now being considered by the powers that be. I also believe they will be moving against the throttle as an assistance regulator but that is a way away yet and only speculation.

All the best, David

 

[Deleted member 4366]

No he is not. He,s saying it as he sees it..and having tried a few I totally agree with him.
The bolux bit is saying bike feels more natural with power in wheel....
That writes off every motorbike...

The power delivery with every cd I,ve tried is as poster says seemlesss..

I sometimes wonder why you are so obsessed with promoting hub and deriding crank ??? It makes no sense at all..yes both have qualities but poster you say is talking bolux lists what many see ( especially with Bosch) as one of its fantastic qualities. Its smoothness and natural operation.

I'll say the same to you. Go and try the bikes I mentioned above, then come back and apologize.

I have crank-drive bikes as well as hub-drive bikes. In fact, I have bikes for every type of riding. For normal travelling, shopping, etc, I have my favourite, which happens to be a hub-motor because it has the characteristics that I find ideal for my purposes. I neither promote hub-motors, nor deride crank ones. If someone came on here and stated that hub-motors are better than crank motors, I'd jump on them too. What I won't tolerate is people making daft sweeping statements based on their limited experience. You admitted yourself that you haven't tried many hub-motored bikes, so why do you write like you're an authority on them?

It's important that people who read these forums are presented with the correct facts so that they can make the correct choice for themselves.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I sometimes wonder why you are so obsessed with promoting hub and deriding crank ??? It makes no sense at all..yes both have qualities but poster you say is talking bolux lists what many see ( especially with Bosch) as one of its fantastic qualities. Its smoothness and natural operation.

I think Trex, like me, feels that there are some contributors to Pedelecs who are completely blinkered when it comes to drive styles. And he, again like me, is being forced to make a case for the much loved, tried and tested hub motor.

We understand that when someone has made an investment in a particular kind of bike, there is a need to justify that purchase decision to both themselves and others.

For the sake of those watching these threads who are maybe less informed, we need to keep a fair and balanced discussion.

To say the CD is better than a hub or visa versa is not helpful or true.

It may be an idea to stop being so vehemently pro or con specific motor kinds and try to understand the advantages and disadvantages of both?

All the best

David

 

[JuicyBike]

To say the CD is better than a hub or visa versa is not helpful or true.

Absolutely agree!

Each bike rider has their own preference for bike as each bike has its own suitability for rider, and their fitness, and terrain, and as for drive systems and manufacturers claims and even rider claims - all are individual.

And as for colours, well that's another matter again.

The only advisable selection strategy is for an individual to find out which suits them best by going to try, many.

 

[KirstinS]

I think Trex, like me, feels that there are some contributors to Pedelecs who are completely blinkered when it comes to drive styles. And he, again like me, is being forced to make a case for the much loved, tried and tested hub motor.

We understand that when someone has made an investment in a particular kind of bike, there is a need to justify that purchase decision to both themselves and others.

For the sake of those watching these threads who are maybe less informed, we need to keep a fair and balanced discussion.

To say the CD is better than a hub or visa versa is not helpful or true.

It may be an idea to stop being so vehemently pro or con specific motor kinds and try to understand the advantages and disadvantages of both?

All the best

David

Couldn't agree more. I have a crank drive bike, a front hub bike and an oold swizzbee with a rather unique mid/rear drive system.

There are pro and cons to each. But many are subjective not objective

My brother in laws (both serious cyclists) tried them all at the weekend and had very different opinions on them.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Whatever anyone's beliefs its simply out of order and extremely confontational to say a poster is talking bolux.
We have a rule on windsurf forum ( for which I help moderate) where anything you say which you wouldn't on beach, or in pub to face of person you get a weeks ban.
Ok , you might still say it, perhaps you like starting fights ? Somehow doubt it.
Just grow up d8 and lose the insults.

In the throttle issue.
Biking Association recommending folk do not buy bikes with throttle. Its a grey area awaiting a court case for ruling.

Any bike with a throttle ( which strictly speaking it is not) can never feel as natural as a pedal assist..
Yes a throttle might be smooth etc but it does not feel in any way like a push bike. It feels more akin to a motorcycle. The Bosch system is as close as is possible to simply feel like something is helping you pedal.
Folk do not need to apologise for expressing opinions. That's the point of a Forum. They should apologise for telling folk they are talking bolux, especially when they are not.

 

[shemozzle999]

that's why she needs a twist and go throttle.
the DfT knows that, hence leaves a door ajar for a little longer.

I would throw in the mix the woosh Santana CD. Jimod has a Santana CD with 14A controller.
The new Santana CD has 20A controller and a throttle. It'll take her up Winnats without pedaling.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?santana-cd

To the best of my knowledge electric bicycles fitted with independent throttles sold from the 1st January 2016 are illegal. Could you please show me any official document that shows otherwise.

 

[tommie]

I have my favourite, which happens to be a hub-motor because it has the characteristics that I find ideal for my purposes.

out of curiosity have you a photo of that particular bike?