Hi

I came to know about the Pedelecs UK through Endless Sphere. I have an e-bike that has cadence sensor with the controller providing on-off type assist on a hub motor (250W rated), but it was difficult to manuevour narrow roads & traffic and it was not providing a natural bicycling feel. Since I had prior familiarity with VESC & as it at that time (more than a year back) got PAS support, by making a few changes in the VESC code to support 1-wire PAS (VESC natively supports only 2-wire PAS as of now), VESC was able to do cadence control, i.e motor assist in proportion to the speed. But my locality had lots of steep hills & it was worse than on-off type PAS control. And there was only one e-bike that has torque sensor, the costliest e-bike here, torque sensor is almost unknown here. So started thinking of ways to achieve a natural ride feel without the necessity of the costly Torque sensor. After some investigation & testing, I was able to modify a pedelec controller so that the motor assist provides a natural riding feel without using torque sensor. Later I was able to get into a startup incubator based on this idea and starting working on the pedelec controller prototype. So at the moment, I am here to know more about the views of pedelec users.

At a later point of time, if I plan to sell or market the product here, I will take a trade membership.

I had been lurking here for some time and had been in a dilemma as to whether introduce myself, since as of now I fall into between a user & a seller (I don't have a product now). I came to know about Pedelecs UK by way of a reference to a new mid-motor kit in ES. Oh what a mess is that thread! And in that thread, there was mention of not introducing to a seemingly company representative. Hence for the sake of transperency, this introduction.

Welcome to the forum anyway Afzal, you dont need to be a user or seller, just being a guest is just as equal and fine by us.

.

That sure sounds good! Is it like KT torque simulation?

No*, it provides motor assist in proportion to the pedal torque exerted by the rider.

* AFAIU, KT torque simulation provides power based on PAS level (with each PAS level deciding the power) as long as the pedal rotates (regardless of the torque or speed). i.e. Basic PAS, constant power.

Always interesting to hear from doers and thinkers! Where in the world are you?

India

It's impossible to comment without knowing what your idea is.

I've tried every type of PAS and torque sensor. I hate power algorithms based on how hard you pedal and I hate controllers with speed control. I'm happy with any controller that uses adjustable current control (KT). With the KT system, you can always pedal as hard or as easy as you want while choosing the amount of assistance you want. I personally can't understand why anybody would want anything different, except for serious mountain biking.

It's impossible to comment without knowing what your idea is.

Processor algorithm estimates the rider effort from the feedback's available to pedelec controller, no accessories are required other than the one minimally required on pedelec (basic PAS)

I've tried every type of PAS and torque sensor. I hate power algorithms based on how hard you pedal and I hate controllers with speed control. I'm happy with any controller that uses adjustable current control (KT). With the KT system, you can always pedal as hard or as easy as you want while choosing the amount of assistance you want. I personally can't understand why anybody would want anything different, except for serious mountain biking.

I believe people have varying preferences.

It was the situations & my wish for a natural bicycling feel that led to this: traffic made it difficult to control the ebike using legs on an on-off type constant power controller (it had only 3 non-configurable PAS levels), while hilly terrain made the ride a torture on an assist system based on cadence.

Edited May 4, 20232 yr by afzal

It's impossible to comment without knowing what your idea is.

 

I've tried every type of PAS and torque sensor. I hate power algorithms based on how hard you pedal and I hate controllers with speed control. I'm happy with any controller that uses adjustable current control (KT). With the KT system, you can always pedal as hard or as easy as you want while choosing the amount of assistance you want. I personally can't understand why anybody would want anything different, except for serious mountain biking.

I'm the complete opposite in that I can't understand why anyone would find a bike that gives a set amount of assistance regardless of the power you put in enjoyable, give me a bike that works with you and rewards your efforts.

That's a good summary in three posts of the breadth of user taste!

For me, if the cycling is the focus then torque sensor all day long, I just love the feeling of bionic legs and the knowledge that hills shall not hold me back.

But for shopping or commuting all I want is an easy time with no quirks that might surprise me in traffic. That's probably the KT, which I've yet to try.

Processor algorithm estimates the rider effort from the feedback's available to pedelec controller, no accessories are required other than the one minimally required on pedelec (basic PAS)

What feedback is available to your pedelec controller? Does it use Machine Learning? Sure sounds to me like a hard sell unless people try it and like it, and they're less likely to try it if your new controller costs much more.

I'm the complete opposite in that I can't understand why anyone would find a bike that gives a set amount of assistance regardless of the power you put in enjoyable, give me a bike that works with you and rewards your efforts.

with cadence sensor, the amount of assistance is not fixed. If you change abruptly from assist level 1 to 5 for example, the bike won't throw you off the saddle. This is because athigher level, the controller will give you just a little more assist, you will find that pedalling is easier but the extra assist is not enough to stop you from pedalling. As the pedalling is easier, people tend to pedal faster, hence they go faster on higher assist. The test to see how good the controller is off course to ride the bike but I can make a short video with the bike on the stand for you if you like. Start at assist level 1, spin the cranks by hand it up to about 14-15mph then increase assist level. You can then appreciate how smooth the transitions are.

What feedback is available to your pedelec controller? Does it use Machine Learning?

External feedback's normally accessible to pedelec controller, viz. voltage, current & hall signals (if available). No ML.

Sure sounds to me like a hard sell unless people try it and like it, and they're less likely to try it if your new controller costs much more.

This is something I have in my mind, note that the controller would have the additional option to switch to adjustable current control from the new "virtual torque control" feature, and it would be an FOC controller.

That's a good summary in three posts of the breadth of user taste!

 

For me, if the cycling is the focus then torque sensor all day long, I just love the feeling of bionic legs and the knowledge that hills shall not hold me back.

 

But for shopping or commuting all I want is an easy time with no quirks that might surprise me in traffic. That's probably the KT, which I've yet to try.

Try it, but bear in mind, there's no way back afterwards. I think a lot of people don't understand it because they never tried it. They try and think about it logically, but you don't figure it out until you've tried it. It's no good for off-road stuff, but for shopping, commuting, errands and stuff like that, nothing beats it. Ideally, you need a throttle to go with it so that you can get max power whenever you need it instantly - non-zero throttle setting to be legal.

It reminds me off the controllers that gave more power as you pedalled faster. Applying basic logic, it sounded like a good idea, then you tried it and quickly discovered why it wasn't.

This is something I have in my mind, note that the controller would have the additional option to switch to adjustable current control from the new "virtual torque control" feature, and it would be an FOC controller.

It's tough starting anything new, but with enough money thrown at advertising on all channels to the point of saturation, you could end up with so many sales you could get away with not providing any warranty or support whatsoever - look at Swytch. Or it could be a personal waste of years, despite the money spent.

 

 

It was the situations & my wish for a natural bicycling feel that led to this: traffic made it difficult to control the ebike using legs on an on-off type constant power controller (it had only 3 non-configurable PAS levels), while hilly terrain made the ride a torture on an assist system based on cadence.

From this it appears the bike controller was a speed controller, these are very simple in operation and don't do anything for hub ebikes. Until one tries a torque controller/ current control like the Kuenteng models then most users have no idea how much smoother and relaxed the ride experience can be, the rider has so much more control at their feet.

It's tough starting anything new, but with enough money thrown at advertising on all channels to the point of saturation, you could end up with so many sales you could get away with not providing any warranty or support whatsoever - look at Swytch. Or it could be a personal waste of years, despite the money spent.

I have a proof-of-concept, tested with geared hub motor as well as direct drive on a bicycle that does not have mechanical gears. I really love the bicycle on steroids feel it provides. But my opinion is not that matters, as you said, I have to get the users try it, feel it & like it.

Even if the product sales end up in a failure, I don't think I will consider it as a personal waste of years.

From this it appears the bike controller was a speed controller, these are very simple in operation and don't do anything for hub ebikes. Until one tries a torque controller/ current control like the Kuenteng models then most users have no idea how much smoother and relaxed the ride experience can be, the rider has so much more control at their feet.

At that time, after some rides, the developer in me came to a conclusion that it is a current control one. But I didn't verify it electrically, since I didn't want to mess with my first one & the most popular manufactured e-bicycle here.

IIRC, one of the observation was - while going up a moderate hill if it is set at low (it had low, mid & high PAS levels), it will move very slowly (on a flat, it moves fast at the same PAS level), and at medium level, more assist from the motor could be felt, further more at the high PAS level resulting in a slightly better speed as well.

If it was a pure speed control, AFAIU, at each level, assist would be provided so that it can reach a certain speed & the controller would provide the maximum power irrespective of the level to achieve that speed, behavior described above on a moderate hill should not happen in that case.

And on a steeper hill, low level cannot push the vehicle, while high level can.

It was the relative rocket speed in traffic at low PAS level that put me off from that.

as NealH said, you have to try a better controller. Your idea is good but I am afraid that people just want something dependable for as little money as possible. saneagle said that.

They would change the assist level or use the throttle on hill.

Open the controller you have, find out which chip it uses, typically an STM chip, then look into making it talk to your phone. That's the lowest cost route.

Alternatively, design an intelligent replacement throttle.

Edited May 5, 20232 yr by Woosh

Let's say that you have indeed designed and made the perfect PAS system. In that case the only comment we can make is to congratulate you and ask how and when we can get one.

BTW, I have some memory about something like this from a few years ago. Did you mention this before on here or some other forum?

Open the controller you have, find out which chip it uses, typically an STM chip, then look into making it talk to your phone. That's the lowest cost route.

Initial version of hardware is ready, firmware development is under progress.

Let's say that you have indeed designed and made the perfect PAS system. In that case the only comment we can make is to congratulate you and ask how and when we can get one.

BTW, I have some memory about something like this from a few years ago. Did you mention this before on here or some other forum?

I am under no illusion that I would be able to make a perfect controller. But my hope is to make a good pedelec controller that can make cycling an enjoyable experience, being aware that people have different preferences and might not suit everyone.

This was mentioned on ES, here it started

Edited May 5, 20232 yr by afzal

I am under no illusion that I would be able to make a perfect controller, perfect is the enemy of good. But my hope is to make a good pedelec controller that can make cycling an enjoyable experience, being aware that people have different preferences and might not suit everyone.

 

This was mentioned on ES, here it started

The discussion that I remember was a few years ago. I'm sure it was a guy from India or somewhere like that and the idea was similar to yours.

You were missing my point above. let me make it clearer: What are you expecting or hoping to get from us?

The discussion that I remember was a few years ago. I'm sure it was a guy from India or somewhere like that and the idea was similar to yours.

I had mentioned only in ES forum, that was only last year. It certainly is not me.

You were missing my point above. let me make it clearer: What are you expecting or hoping to get from us?

Get to know better the pedelec user viewpoint, beta testing and feedback, and later if things work out well sales.

Product is under development, expecting it to be ready for beta testing in around 9 months.

You need to be more specific about exactly what your idea does, then we can comment on it. All we have is that you say that you think that your idea makes the power algorithms better for you. We have very little details of what your bike was like before you started other than you didn't like the power algorithms. How much power did it have? What was the current from the controller? What's the voltage, what type of motor was it? what sort of gars did you have? Show some photos of the parts. If you don't know what they are, maybe we can, then we might be able to show you alternative ways of solving the problem.

My memory is starting to come back regarding that previous didcussion. When the details finally came out of what the guy was using, there was something fundamentally flawed in his starting point, so his fantastic idea was blown out.