Help Needed For Carrera Crossfire Throttle Convesion Please!!!

Hi All, can anyone help? I am a newbie to this ebike stuff but needed to install thumb throttle for help in my old age.......I have read the threads about converting my Carrera ebike to have a throttle, I bought the Kit consisting of controller, PAS, Throttle and LCD5 fitted to the bike wire to wire connections as the thread said, fired it up and set up the LCD5 with settings you will see below in pictures I have taken. Test revield nothing happens the motor gives a grunt when trying the throttle if I just wheel it backwards hold the switch then it runs.

 

The wiring is correct as per diagram supplied, the PAS distance between the magnets and sensor is 3mm (8 Magnets)

 

The only thing I can think of is it said the controller is suitable for 500w motor and the Carrera is 250w suntour but I thought bigger would be ok?

 

I am going to load the pictures of the install at the moment its looks rough but I will tidy this up when it works.

 

During road test nothing worked also If I switch on the battery then the LCD5 the battery shows full power in the display but the lights on the battery itself switch off, if I switch the battery on the lights only remain on for a few second?

 

Ant help will be much appreciated Kind regards To All Phill McCluskey

 

LCD5

 

Original Battery

 

New controller

 

Original Carrera motor

 

New PAS the gap is 3mm

 

The Settings I ahev used in progamming, Wheels are 700c, and set from KM/H to MPH

Can you post a photo of the wiring showing the connectors? It doesn’t matter if it all looks messy.

 

The controller is fine for that motor, but you may need to dial back the current to protect the battery.

 

One easy thing to try is rotate the pedals backwards with the rear wheel in the air and make sure the display is set to pas 1. Sometimes the pas works in reverse and it’s easy to programme the display to get pas working in the correct direction.

 

“if I just wheel it backwards hold the switch then it runs”. Could mean the pas is backwards and to reverse it, C1 needs to be set to 5, 6 or 7 depending upon your preference.

 

People often get the throttle and pas wiring wrong because the colour coding is all over the shop.

Edited April 4, 20233 yr by AGS

Trying to understand what is occuring ?

Are you saying that when the motor does run it rotates A/C/W ?

If so then try swapping a pair of the thick phase wires for C/W rotation.

With motor halls and phases there are 36 wiring permutations of which maybe 3 will work, methodically working thru them and writing down the results takes approx. 30 mins . Select the one that works best.

 

Can you post a photo of the wiring showing the connectors? It doesn’t matter if it all looks messy.

 

The controller is fine for that motor, but you may need to dial back the current to protect the battery.

 

One easy thing to try is rotate the pedals backwards with the rear wheel in the air and make sure the display is set to pas 1. Sometimes the pas works in reverse and it’s easy to programme the display to get pas working in the correct direction.

 

“if I just wheel it backwards hold the switch then it runs”. Could mean the pas is backwards and to reverse it, C1 needs to be set to 5, 6 or 7 depending upon your preference.

 

People often get the throttle and pas wiring wrong because the colour coding is all over the shop.

 

Hi Set display to P 1 it reads 87 turned peddles backwards it made no difference.

if I hold the throttle switch down and pull the bike a few inches back the motor grunts and tries to move the bike forward, if i lift it up quick enough the back wheel spins in the right direction. On the road test I have no PAS or throttle just normal peddle on the bike

 

Please see below the wiring when I have it working they will all be fitted in a box on the down saddle tube including controller

 

Thanks for the help

 

There was a similar issue here but without resolution. The difference is that his bike worked and then suddenly developed the fault.

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/very-weird-motor-issue-only-kicks-in-when-the-wheel-is-moved-backwards.35983/

 

This is a good piece of advise to start with from that thread:

 

“Check the motor hall sensor wires. I had a similar mysterious fault with harsh running, turned out to be one Hall wire at the multi plug near the controller had snapped where it went into the tiny metal connector in the plug”.

 

The controller side colour coding is consistent and there are plenty of on line diagrams showing the KT colour coding, but the pas and throttle wires aren’t always logical. e.g red throttle wires aren’t always +5v. I have a Wuxing 76X throttle where red is signal, blue is +5v and black is gnd.

 

Do you have a multimeter? It looks like it’s time to start measuring some voltages.

Edited April 4, 20233 yr by AGS

Afaicr P1 87 doesn't work with the HESC hub , it has to be a lot higher.

A couple of forum members have successfully gone down the hesc to Kt route , if they are current maybe they can chip in with a P1 that worked.

 

I would try 160 or 200 to see if it helps.

Edited April 4, 20233 yr by Nealh

There was a similar issue here but without resolution. The difference is that his bike worked and then suddenly developed the fault.

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/very-weird-motor-issue-only-kicks-in-when-the-wheel-is-moved-backwards.35983/

 

This is a good piece of advise to start with from that thread:

 

“Check the motor hall sensor wires. I had a similar mysterious fault with harsh running, turned out to be one Hall wire at the multi plug near the controller had snapped where it went into the tiny metal connector in the plug”.

 

The controller side colour coding is consistent and there are plenty of on line diagrams showing the KT colour coding, but the pas and throttle wires aren’t always logical. e.g red throttle wires aren’t always +5v. I have a Wuxing 76X throttle where red is signal, blue is +5v and black is gnd.

 

Do you have a multimeter? It looks like it’s time to start measuring some voltages.

 

Hi yes I have a multimeter I will also check all the connections today

When testing use low PAS and not throttle, throttle will usually deliver max current so one could end up damaging the controller if the wheel is not operating.

When testing use low PAS and not throttle, throttle will usually deliver max current so one could end up damaging the controller if the wheel is not operating.

Tested each wire for continuity to the 9 pin plug that goes to the motor they are all ok so continued with the following check.

 

I have checked the voltages as per halls test document you recommended to another user with same problem I have tested the connections to the multiplug all ok, connected multiplug back to motor and tested each wire from halls connector with wheel turning backwards using black as the ground, all voltages where 4.5v they dropped to between 2.5 and 1 when spining the wheel backwards except the red test the voltage stays constant at 4.5v does not move. do you think its motor or controller?

Hub motors rarely go wrong , only plastic gears and halls can go wrong.

With the halls there are only three Green, Blue , Yellow, the Red & Black are simply the 5v supply & Gnd supply for them and the spd sensor.

 

3mm gap from PAS sensor to magnet is far to great, for a decent signal it needs ideally to be 1mm or less so first of all get that sorted . You have two options remove the sensor from the bracket , place it on the opposite side and reverse the bracket so it is cranked further out or simply try and bend it over.

 

Next might be a setting issue with C1 as you are using a 8 pole disc then the value should be 00 or 01. If the PAS then works but only by A/C/W pedalling then one has to either reverse the magnet disc face or move rotate the sensor 180 degrees in it's current plain.

Edited April 6, 20233 yr by Nealh

Even with the suntour hesc hub a transition to a kt set up should be fairly simple and pain free. Most often any issue is either down to a bad wire connection or a setting issue with the PAS.

 

A P1 setting may give poor riding operation , this can be fine tuned better once the motor is working correctly.

 

Until PAS is working correctly is best to simply remove any throttle connection and brake connection.

Edited April 6, 20233 yr by Nealh

Evne with the suntour hesc hub a transition to a kt set up should be fairly simple and pain free. Most often any issue is either down to a bad wire connection or a setting issue with the PAS.

 

A P1 setting may give poor riding operation , this can be fine tuned better once the motor is working correctly.

 

Until PAS is working correctly is best to simply remove any throttle connection and brake connection.

 

Hi Nealh thanks for that reply I will sort the PAS as recommended plus the P1 and let you know Thanks Phill

Tested each wire for continuity to the 9 pin plug that goes to the motor they are all ok so continued with the following check.

 

I have checked the voltages as per halls test document you recommended to another user with same problem I have tested the connections to the multiplug all ok, connected multiplug back to motor and tested each wire from halls connector with wheel turning backwards using black as the ground, all voltages where 4.5v they dropped to between 2.5 and 1 when spining the wheel backwards except the red test the voltage stays constant at 4.5v does not move. do you think its motor or controller?

You can't just go colour to colour when you connect any controller to any motor. Neal gave you a table that shows how to find the correct connection sequence.

If using a W/P solution with the moulded julet leads then fault finding becomes very awkward and difficult.

If using a W/P solution with the moulded julet leads then fault finding becomes very awkward and difficult.

 

Hi Nealh The first thing I did was to setup the PAS and magnets as suggested, I have done a very tempory job of fixing the sensor to the frame and set it to 1mm or maybe a bit closer a credit card fits with a bit of a push between magnets and sensor.

 

Next disconnected all leads except 9 pin to motor, PAS, display and motor phase wires, bike mounted on frame to lift back wheel off the floor to allow peddle rotation.

 

Set P1 =170 and C1= 00 switched on the display started at 0 and turned the peddles by hand no motor drive. set to level 1 and motor started and ran smooth, went to level 2 ok, level3 ok, level 4 ok and level 5 ok speed reading was 20.2 mph, there was no change from level 1 to 5 in motor or wheel rpm.

 

Used a hook on amp meter and the reading was between 1.5amp and 2,5 on the motor phase wires. Connected Throttle and wheel stationary pressed the lever and wheel turned immediatly current draw on each motor phase was 5amp at start dropping to 1.5/2 amp when up to speed.

 

Tried the first 3 phase wire swopping as per that chart you posted but motor did not sound happy at all sounded like a bag of bolts, so went back to the first one which was the original suntour connection configuration.

 

I have not tried a road test as it rained most of the day will do it on Sarurday.

 

Any comments or fine tunning would be appreciated Thanks for your help, I am smiling and my wife has stopped nagging cheers Phill McCluskey

Great well done we are getting there, it is all about settings and PAS set up and is a familiar issue we see many times.

Level 0 is system on but no power it is the default neutral mode.

The current is low because there is no motor load, to see more current one needs to run the motor and apply the brakes gently to generate load.

 

Typically one will see 13% current in PAS1, 20% in PAS2, 33% in PAS3, 50% in PAS4 & 100% in PAS5. % is that of the max controller amp rating.

 

You will or should feel the different current chnage thru the five assist levels with a load so yes a proper test ride. Even on flat terrain one will feel the power difference in each PAS level via acceleration , if you use a hill you will notice the torque effect of the current more.

 

Having got the motor working there should be no need to mess with phase swapping any how this can be done as well with C2 function.

One can try changing P1 to value 1 to see if it also works , it may or may not.

To incease PAS signal strength C14 3 is the strongest signal value.

Once happy with the actuatuion one can try and set P1 to be fairly accurate, you will need a gps to set the P1 speed correctly within 0.1 or 0.2 mph.

Go in to the basic settings and set the speed to 15.5mph or 25kmh , go for a ride with a gps and see how the speeds match. If not matching the P1 setting needs adjusting so the ODO readout matches closely to the gps. We don't know the actual internal gear ratio so you will have to juggle P1 up or down so that the ODO reads much the same as the gps.

Most hubs are clone sof bafang and have 4:4:1 or 5:1 gearing with often 20 motor magnets we end up with a P1 ranging between 84 - 100 so you could try that as a first port of call , if the readings are way out then you could try 170 and work your way up or down from that figure.

 

Once you get the P1 figure right and the motor pick up feels good you can then set the speed limit as you wish knowing it will be accurate.

 

We don't know the motor rpm until you get the odo/gps reading accurate , onece that is done release the speed limit and let us know the fastest no load speed you see then we can get a good idea of the HESC rpm rating.

P1 we discussed .

P2 is correct ODO reading when freewheeling it will either be 1 or 6 depending on how many speed magnets the hub uses.

P3 is power control default is 1 for current control , this is what it should be left at.

P4 is throttle use 0 is illegal twist and go mode always active, 1 is pedal first to activate.

P5 is the battery meter bars and how quickly they disappear , very rudimentry and not very accurate for 36v use 10 -1 3, for 48v about 15 or so. The meter is aguide but if your lcd has a volatge reading then that is a far better fuel gauge to use.

 

C1 is PAS disc used 00 works for 8 poles though you might find 01 might work.

C2 is phase squence 0 should be the default clean action of the controller.

C3 is PAS gear ratio, this means which ever PAS level last used will be set on start up. I select 0 so each start up is in 0 mode, it simply prevents accidental actuation should the pedals turn or you hit the throttle (if used). 1 - 5 simply means that PAS level will be the selected default level when switched on. 8 is auto mode and will remember the last PAS level used.

C4 Is throttle related 0 is no speed on start up.

C5 is current amps 10 is max current , other figures decrease the current load depending on the displays manual.

C6 is back light brightness 1-3 low to high.

C7 is cruise mode 0 is default and safest.

C8 is motor temp , a defunct mode as the motor has no temp sensor.

C9 is Password setting 0 is default . If you set one don't forget it . You will annoyingly be prompted to enter it every time it powers off.

C10 is system restore to deafult mode.

C11 is Comms display data for the better digital displays 0 is default used. 1 is for basic lcd1 or 2 display. 3 is for copying data with a data transfer cable.

C12 is lvc min voltage cut off, one can select a lower or higher lvc then default value 4

C13 is ABS regen 0 is default as hub has no regen.

C14 is PAS siganl strength 1 -3 weak - strong.

P1 we discussed .

P2 is correct ODO reading when freewheeling it will either be 1 or 6 depending on how many speed magnets the hub uses.

P3 is power control default is 1 for current control , this is what it should be left at.

P4 is throttle use 0 is illegal twist and go mode always active, 1 is pedal first to activate.

P5 is the battery meter bars and how quickly they disappear , very rudimentry and not very accurate for 36v use 10 -1 3, for 48v about 15 or so. The meter is aguide but if your lcd has a volatge reading then that is a far better fuel gauge to use.

 

C1 is PAS disc used 00 works for 8 poles though you might find 01 might work.

C2 is phase squence 0 should be the default clean action of the controller.

C3 is PAS gear ratio, this means which ever PAS level last used will be set on start up. I select 0 so each start up is in 0 mode, it simply prevents accidental actuation should the pedals turn or you hit the throttle (if used). 1 - 5 simply means that PAS level will be the selected default level when switched on. 8 is auto mode and will remember the last PAS level used.

C4 Is throttle related 0 is no speed on start up.

C5 is current amps 10 is max current , other figures decrease the current load depending on the displays manual.

C6 is back light brightness 1-3 low to high.

C7 is cruise mode 0 is default and safest.

C8 is motor temp , a defunct mode as the motor has no temp sensor.

C9 is Password setting 0 is default . If you set one don't forget it . You will annoyingly be prompted to enter it every time it powers off.

C10 is system restore to deafult mode.

C11 is Comms display data for the better digital displays 0 is default used. 1 is for basic lcd1 or 2 display. 3 is for copying data with a data transfer cable.

C12 is lvc min voltage cut off, one can select a lower or higher lvc then default value 4

C13 is ABS regen 0 is default as hub has no regen.

C14 is PAS siganl strength 1 -3 weak - strong.

 

Hi Nealh

Great information I thank you most sincerely for all the help, I will stup GPS and do a speed test Saturday as you suggested, I will then carry out the tests with bike on stand and let you know the speeds generated with no load, I am very pleased and its been a great learning curve. I will tidy up all the cables etc and mount cotroller in a box when finnished all the checks. Thanks again Phill McCluskey

Hi Nealh

Great information I thank you most sincerely for all the help, I will stup GPS and do a speed test Saturday as you suggested, I will then carry out the tests with bike on stand and let you know the speeds generated with no load, I am very pleased and its been a great learning curve. I will tidy up all the cables etc and mount cotroller in a box when finnished all the checks. Thanks again Phill McCluskey

 

Hi Nealh

Road Test Results.

Firstly I had to change the PAS sensor as I failed to get a good enough mounting for the sensor and it kept slipping, I ordered and fitted the KT-V12L sensor tested everything setup GPS and off around the block.

 

I set the gear shift to the second lowest cog at the bottom to keep the peddles at the same speed when riding, Selected O on display and started off, then selected mode 1 and motor kicked in great help and smooth, Mode 2, then 3, then 4, then 5, using the same gear the speed increased for each mode and the motor change was smooth and you can feel the power difference, continued to peddle and activated throttle works great takes over smooth and at full throttle reached 19 mph on GPS.

 

Problems encountered :- The GPS reaches 7 mph before the ODO kicks in and speed reading is 7 mph lower than GPS in all modes 1 through 5 and free wheeling.

 

When stationary after applying the brakes the GPS goes immediatly to 0 mph but the ODO still reads 4mph then slowly runs down to 0 takes about 2 seconds.

 

I had to set the speed setting on the ODO to 50mph to get reasonable speed from the bike if I set it to 15 mph and P1 to 87 it was very slow and top speed was around 10mph in mode 5 and throttle was not much better.

 

My Settings are as follows:-

Speed 50 mph, wheel 700c

P1= 170

P2 = 4 tried 5 & 6 no difference in speed accuracy to GPS

P3 =1

P4 = 1

P5 = 13

 

C1 = 05 tried 05 and 07 no difference

C2 = 0

C3 = 0

C4 = 0

C5 = 10

C6 = 3

C7 = 0

C8 = 0

C9 =0

C10 = n

C11 = 0

C12 = 4

C13 = 0

C14 = 3

 

Any comments will be much appreciated and again many thanks for you help I am very greatful, 19 mph was really good in mode 5 an works very smooth and is easy to peddle through all modes, GPS picture added below cheers for now Phill McCluskey

P2 doesn't affect the speed , all it does is to allow the speed read out to work. The setting will be either 1 or 6, depending on how many speed magnets are fitted to the inside of the motor face plate.

 

As I mentioned I did say that P1 87 likely will not be correct, the reason being pick up and speed reading would be incorrect. As we don't know the internal gear reduction the one will simply have to play with P1 values until speed read out matches a gps reading.

It appears thet 170 is not far off, but not correct. As the speed reading is 7mph lower then the gps , you still have some P1 adjusting to do as the reading should match the gps to with in 0.3kmh or so. Looks like you will need to maybe go higher so try 200 and see if the 7mph difference is less.

Edited April 8, 20233 yr by Nealh