Hello to everyone else that loves these machines :)

[grayns]

Hi, I'm from Stoke-on-Trent ( the rumour going around that Stokes shut isn't really true), I'm 64, Had a stroke a few years ago and basically been pensioned off to play by myself (I said "by" myself). I consider myself lucky really, just watching the news each day reminds me I could have ended up in a far worse position than I have.
I found this site searching for information, Ive been building electric bikes for about 4 years now and I understand all the basics. What I am not savvy with is the electronic terminology mentioned in adverts like everyone reading knows what the hell they are on about. Most of us know what a hub motor is, if you do please nod your head, then they are on about amps versus watts and ruddy phase angles and then I have to have a coffee because I no comprendo.
That's my reason for joining pedelecs.co.uk, so I can read through the forums and pick the brains of those who know a lot more about the subject than I do, never too old to learn.
I was on google last weekend trying to find an answer to my latest problem, I bought a 1000w controller + LCD from Hallomotor.com and no matter what I do the motor which is only a few months old will not run, no sign of life nowhere, no throttle, no PAS, but all is not lost because the LCD works!!! The LCD is correctly set up according to Hallomotor instruction sheet and the now many emails to and fro but no power to the hub........bugger. So google lead me here to a thread on these hallowed pages where one guys trying to assist another with exactly the same problem. I read through it not understanding all the terminology, but nodding my head as if I did because my grandson was watching, and then I had a coffee.
I'd noticed on the new controller that the hall wires are as thick as the others, where they are normally 5 very thin sad looking things, that brittle ally wire that breaks if you look at it funny. The PAS and throttle are identical apart from the connectors, female on the throttle (oh the memories ) and male on the PAS wires. I wondered if maybe the factory had fitted the connectors to the wrong wires, could have a technician with a hangover or a robot with a coolant problem, you never know. I made up some leads to cross connect them, and there you go, it still doesn’t work. Checked my emails and Hallomotor are asking for photos of the wiring connections I’ve made, did that, and included a photo of my original controller, showing the label stating ……yes its 48v – yes its 1000w – and that its marked phase120, sent it and next morning had the reply as follows…………”hi,
Your motor is not compatible with our controller, our is hall angle 120 degree type not phase 120 degree. You can return it to us for a refund(after deduced our dispatch shipping fee about $15).
Regards”
The controller description on the site doesn’t mention degrees of either hall angle or phase, when I first told them I couldn’t get it to run they said “check your motor is 120”, they didn’t say hall or phase. I looked, saw 120 on the controller label and said yes it is. This is where I get stuck, what the hell is the difference between hall angle and phase angle? Why doesn’t it state clear requirements on the site to match your motor before its sent half way round the world with the shipping costing as much as the item………… not to work? Now they want me to pay for return shipping and charge me $15 (about) for the privilege. Well thank you sir but no. I’ll keep the damn thing until I come across a motor that it will run.
Sorry people did not intend to type a novel moaning like a bloke from Stoke that’s had a stroke, but I have. Regards, Gray.

I

 

[johneb]

Ah! A fellow newbie with the same problem as me ......... the Black Art of electronics! I've tried rolling up my trousers, standing on one leg whilst I sacrificed a cauliflower with a 1980's Suntour rear mech (well, it had to be useful for something) , but I still don't understand the lingo. Can any of the Enlightened Ones recommend a book which gives a reasonable introduction to the mysteries of brushless motors and control thereof?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Grayns, What they've told you doesn't quite add up to me. I had to think about it a bit. The halls trigger the pulses for the phase timing. The phases are 120 deg apart, therefore the hall signals should also be 120 deg apart (electrically). It's feasible that they could be a different angle, but then the programmer would have to program in an offset (time) that varies with speed, which doesn't sound feasible, so I would say that 120 deg phases has 120 deg hall signals.

Here's an animation that shows how an ebike motor works. Click on the step through animation buttons at the bottom:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/4-pole-bldc-motor031102.swf

 

[grayns]

Ah! A fellow newbie with the same problem as me ......... the Black Art of electronics! I've tried rolling up my trousers, standing on one leg whilst I sacrificed a cauliflower with a 1980's Suntour rear mech (well, it had to be useful for something) , but I still don't understand the lingo. Can any of the Enlightened Ones recommend a book which gives a reasonable introduction to the mysteries of brushless motors and control thereof?

Hello there, thanks for the reply. It looks like we have landed in the right place, been browsing the forums getting used to the site, there's a lot of
knowledgeable people on here. Good luck fella.

 

[grayns]

Grayns, What they've told you doesn't quite add up to me. I had to think about it a bit. The halls trigger the pulses for the phase timing. The phases are 120 deg apart, therefore the hall signals should also be 120 deg apart (electrically). It's feasible that they could be a different angle, but then the programmer would have to program in an offset (time) that varies with speed, which doesn't sound feasible, so I would say that 120 deg phases has 120 deg hall signals.

Here's an animation that shows how an ebike motor works. Click on the step through animation buttons at the bottom:

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/4-pole-bldc-motor031102.swf

Hello and thank for your reply and information, also thanks for the link. I was a panel beater/sprayer by trade, and my welding was code tested as an insurance requirement. My life was consumed by cars motorcycles and petrol driven machines, basic wiring for these vehicles is a different world to the electronic specifications and internal workings of electric motors. As "johneb" called it, "the black art of electronics". I can fit the kits easily enough so I stick to what I know, aware of the fact that I need the advice and guidance of people into electronics, so I think I'm in the right place. Regards, Gray.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

In principle, everything is very simple with electric bikes. The system is modular, so you need to try and understand each module, one by one. Then you get the bigger picture. Even the complex things like the controllers are modular in the way they work, so they too can be broken down into simple understandable blocks.

 

[grayns]

Hi, I'm with you so far, and have a question. What's going through my mind now is; they said my motor was not compatible due to not being 120deg hall angle as their motor is, so if the controller is in fact a good one I just need a 120 deg hall motor to work with this controller........possibly. Question, I've wondered what would happen if I connect say a 1000w controller to a 350/500w motor?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Don't take any notice of watts. Only current has any meaning for controllers. The first question is, which motor is it?

 

[grayns]

On hallomotor.com they have a 350w motor with spline for a free hub cassette. I have their 1000w controller and a 48v 20ah battery, also a gizmo I got off ebay that controls power output.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You need to give a link to the motor. If it's their grarless one, my guess is 20 amps max. You need to know what RPM version they do at what voltage, because that'll have a big effect on whether it'll overheat.

 

[grayns]

I found a link to the motor, the one I looked at was 48v.

http://www.hallomotor.com/e-bike-diy-parts/hub-motors/48v-350w-newest-brushless-gearless-rear-hub-motor-9-speed-cassette-freehub.html

 

[Deleted member 4366]

If you want one of those, you have to ask about RPM at 48V.

 

[johneb]

Hello there, thanks for the reply. It looks like we have landed in the right place, been browsing the forums getting used to the site, there's a lot of
knowledgeable people on here. Good luck fella.

Hi Gray, yes - I'm sure you're right. d8veh seems to be a particularly knowledgeable and prolific poster and no doubt there are plenty more helpful types like him on this forum (and Endless-sphere, although I haven't ventured much onto their forums, yet). Really interesting to see what others are up to, as well. I've always fancied building a tadpole trike and the posts by twinkle regarding hers are really inspiring me to have a go at some point. Happy tinkering!

 

[grayns]

If you want one of those, you have to ask about RPM at 48V.

Hi, just revisited the site and reviewed the motor, its gearless and states in large print (didn't see it ) at 48v its 300rpm), will book myself in for an eye test in the near future. The matching 350w controller with 6fets for the motor says cut off is 23amps, the 1000w controller with 15fets cut off is 30amps. So is 15fets a plus for a cooler running controller , or will I have to fit a drip tray for a rapidly melting motor , regards and thanks. Gray.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I don't really know that motor, but it's very small for a gearless one, so probably means low torque. 300 RPM is quite fast, so you have the following recipe. Low torque motor + high-speed winding + high current = melt-down.

If you're light (>75kg), it might be OK, but if you want power, get a bigger motor. That one should be alright with the smaller controller, but it won't climb mountains - especially if you're heavy.

 

[grayns]

I don't really know that motor, but it's very small for a gearless one, so probably means low torque. 300 RPM is quite fast, so you have the following recipe. Low torque motor + high-speed winding + high current = melt-down.

If you're light (>75kg), it might be OK, but if you want power, get a bigger motor. That one should be alright with the smaller controller, but it won't climb mountains - especially if you're heavy.

Thank you for reply and advise, much appreciated.

 

[grayns]

Success at last, motor controller and LCD and PAS working as it should with my hub motor . Received an email from Hallomotor asking specifically for photos of the throttle and electric lock connections I’ve made. I explained I bought the controller and LCD only, as I have a 48v throttle that looks identical to theirs but mine does not have a key lock built in, and that the lock connector on the controller was not connected to anything. Their throttle apparently has two 2 connectors, the main and the key lock, so if I short the 2 key lock wires out at the controller end it should complete the circuit.
I was convinced the throttle had a current feed as the 5 battery display lights are all on, seems I’m wrong again . This must have been a different member of their staff, one of the others told me after they asked for a photo of my original controller which is marked phase120, “Your motor is not compatible with our controller, ours is hall angle 120 degree type not phase 120 degree.” (d8veh) said he believed the hall and phase angles should be the same so thankfully I didn’t send it back and lose money on it, my gratitude goes to d8veh for that. I will go to sleep tonight a happy man.