Having to replace Cassette after only 500 miles Cube Touring Pro 625

[matthewslack]

Worst case is replace chain and cassette, but don't throw the existing ones away. With more miles you will work out what's happening and how to deal with it.

I use ep90 oil too, because I do a lot of miles, and £8 a litre vs £8 for half a cupful seemed worthwhile! But it is messy, if I lived in a cleaner, drier place, or did many fewer miles, I would probably use a dry lube spray to keep my clothes clean!

 

[guerney]

Surely they aren't devious enough to deliberately mess the tuning with the lowest cog on the chance i'd say yes to buying and having them replace an entire cassette?

The 100+ year old crook who owns and operates my local bike shop intentionally sells utter crap to everyone, and fits said crap to all the bikes he services, knowing full well that shite will need replacement in short order. His family have been in the bike game for hundreds of years, even manufactured them in the factory 200 yards away from his den of theivery/shop, many years ago . It's all about making regular and numerous repeat business happen, and that crook has learned that lesson well.

 

[guerney]

Honestly thought i had, park tools videos have been a great learning tool. All gears are shifting fine when on a bike stand but it's a different matter when riding. I'll give it another check but if the bike shop couldn't fix the skipping even after tightening the casette.

I'd try increasing chain tension:

 

[guerney]

I think if you are setting off in your highest gear with a mid-drive ebike of high torque after 500 miles the smallest cog on the cassette could be worn in my opinion.

Isn't the torque on the "Bosch Drive Unit Performance Generation 3" 75Nm? On paper that's 5Nm less than my BBS01B, and I'm regularly forced to stop unexpectedly on a high gear by pedestrians and traffic, and start again... standing on the pedals... but despite doing that, my smallest cog has never worn first, nor has the chain ever skipped on highest gear. Mind you, my wheels are substantially smaller at 20" and my mid-drive is cadence not torque sensored, but even so, I think what you suggest is highly unlikely.

Durty bu66er

Shields eyes from the horror. I'll have nightmares tonight.

There used to be particularly dirty prisons for clean freaks, but imprisoned anally retenetive clean chain OCD germophobe freak types keep cleaning them up.

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[guerney]

I use ep90 oil too, because I do a lot of miles, and £8 a litre vs £8 for half a cupful seemed worthwhile! But it is messy, if I lived in a cleaner, drier place, or did many fewer miles, I would probably use a dry lube spray to keep my clothes clean!

My theory is by regularly and frequently dousing my chain with lashings of Hypoid 90, I'm effectively keeping dirt in suspension, friction low, and (some) dirt gets spattered away thereby keeping chain and sprocket wear low. I'm sticking to this story.

 

[saneagle]

'Tightened Cassettte as it was very loose. Gears Jumping under load on bottom cog. The rest seem fine, no battery with bike to test with motor on'

That's a very weird thing to say. We normally talk about the lowest gear, which is the biggest cog and least likely to slip. When people say things like "lowest cog". It's not what I'd expect an experienced bike mechanic to say if they mean the highest gear, which is the smallest cog.

 

[FastFreddy2]

Hi guys, bought a new Cube Touring Pro last July

"This electric bikes includes a 5yr warranty on the frame, 2yr warranty on all the electrics and 1yr warranty on the components."

Contrary to the conspiracy theorists (which would usually include me), other than a bent derailleur (user error) all the other problems are -or should be- taken care of under warranty.

'Tightened Cassettte as it was very loose. Gears Jumping under load on bottom cog. The rest seem fine, no battery with bike to test with motor on'

I barely tighten my cassettes on the hub, and never had one loosen up. How is that even possible with the direction of the chain movement? Lots of jerky starts perhaps?

How was the bike shop supposed to resolve a problem only evident under load, when no battery was available to test for the symptom?

The bike should have had a pre-delivery check before being handed over the owner, and Leisure Lakes must employ people who know what they doing. I think it safe to assume the rear derailleur is set up correctly.

All gears are fine at this point apart from the small cog so i could be fine without as i find the second smallest to be enough for my needs.

How is the smallest cog/highest gear "worn out" if the second smallest is enough for you needs?

Chains usually wear out before cassettes? (Lots of moving parts, not the case with cassettes.) How do you wear out a single cog on a cassette? Unless it's the only one you use?

when i dropped the bike it was slipping on all so i believe it was a bent hangar. It actually fell a second time and had an issue with it slipping in a middle cog and no amount of tuning was sorting it so i bought a hangar myself and replaced it which fixed the problem.

It actually "fell" a second time .......

"Slipping" on a middle cog, and only a middle cog and a replacement hanger fixed the problem?

What is slipping? Climbing onto a lower or higher gear? Once a derailleur is set up correctly, how is that possible (with a cassette and derailleur fitted correctly of course). What is the change torque load is having on the drive system? Alignment?

I've had a look at the bike in question, and the frame looks quite robust. Probably not flexing then? Could the rear triangle now be misaligned as it's been dropped a couple of times? Is the chainline where it should be? My gut feeling is there is too much sideways (chainline) deviation. It would also account for the highest gear/smallest cog wearing as it (allegedly) has. As the bike is still under warranty, I would be asking for a new cassette and new chain. But if there is excessive chainline deviation, this is going to be recurring problem, especially if the cog producing the worst deviation is the one being used the most.

There's just so much not making sense?

 

[FastFreddy2]

Feast your eyes, clean chain anal types suffering from OCD:


View attachment 56300

That would be me.

Two or three washes in white spirit. Air dry or use hairdryer. Overnight soak in chain saw anti-fling oil.

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, with jockey wheels on my bike that gummed up. Even if you can, you might want to consider replacing what is left of your gear cable?

 

[guerney]

That would be me.

I'm delighted this photo causes distress. I wish I had a bigger photo.

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, with jockey wheels on my bike that gummed up.

Sleep is for wimps.

Two or three washes in white spirit. Air dry or use hairdryer. Overnight soak in chain saw anti-fling oil.

Get my hands dirty? Are you insane?!?!?

Even if you can, you might want to consider replacing what is left of your gear cable?

Despite how it looks, that beautifully formed stainless steel Shimano gear cable works perfectly, and has done for over three years. No cable strands are broken (the apparent break is caused by my cellphone camera's fake shallow depth of field effect), it's just been squeezed a bit by adjustments after my second post-conversion chain replacement. I now simply use the derailleur adjustment screws when fitting a new chain if necessary, while pretending to know something about bicycles. Pretending is always necessary.

 

[guerney]

I barely tighten my cassettes on the hub, and never had one loosen up. How is that even possible with the direction of the chain movement? Lots of jerky starts perhaps?

High torque would have tightened the cassette, therefore the OP wasn't using high torque. Does not compute.

That's a very weird thing to say. We normally talk about the lowest gear, which is the biggest cog and least likely to slip. When people say things like "lowest cog". It's not what I'd expect an experienced bike mechanic to say if they mean the highest gear, which is the smallest cog.

It's even worse being swindled by non-professionals. Really hurts one's sense of worth.

 

[FastFreddy2]

I'm delighted this photo causes distress. I wish I had a bigger photo.

That's a bit cruel .....

High torque would have tightened the cassette, therefore the OP wasn't using high torque. Does not compute.

The OP HAD to be using high torque, because the symptoms as described were only present when "high" torque was used? I did think the cassette would be tightened, but might only be true of a freewheel. The lockring on a cassette if not tightened enough might be loosened by jerky starts? A bit like water in a glass if you rotate the glass, the water doesn't move with the glass ...

 

[guerney]

That's a bit cruel .....

Zoomable recent pic, disappointingly not as distressing for bug-eyed clean chain terminally anally retentive OCD clean freak types to view. Unfortunately and despite not needing to, by mistake I cleaned the jockey wheel when replacing the chain and cassette. Removed a surprising quantity of oily grimy grass. That'll do for another 6 years. The yellow thing turned out to be a sliver of reflective plastic picked up from somewhere. I got my fingers dirty removing it. Hope you lot are happy now.

 

[saneagle]

That's a bit cruel .....



The OP HAD to be using high torque, because the symptoms as described were only present when "high" torque was used? I did think the cassette would be tightened, but might only be true of a freewheel. The lockring on a cassette if not tightened enough might be loosened by jerky starts? A bit like water in a glass if you rotate the glass, the water doesn't move with the glass ...

The cassette ring has a ratchet spline, so it can't come undone. If it was loose, it's a manufacturing/assembly fault, which should be covered by warranty. The cassette retaining ring clamps the cassette to the freehub. It's totally unaffected by any torque or anything the rider does to the bike other than removing the wheel and loosening it with the correct tool.

 

[mrpie]

"This electric bikes includes a 5yr warranty on the frame, 2yr warranty on all the electrics and 1yr warranty on the components."

Contrary to the conspiracy theorists (which would usually include me), other than a bent derailleur (user error) all the other problems are -or should be- taken care of under warranty.

'Tightened Cassettte as it was very loose. Gears Jumping under load on bottom cog. The rest seem fine, no battery with bike to test with motor on'

I barely tighten my cassettes on the hub, and never had one loosen up. How is that even possible with the direction of the chain movement? Lots of jerky starts perhaps?

How was the bike shop supposed to resolve a problem only evident under load, when no battery was available to test for the symptom?

The bike should have had a pre-delivery check before being handed over the owner, and Leisure Lakes must employ people who know what they doing. I think it safe to assume the rear derailleur is set up correctly.



How is the smallest cog/highest gear "worn out" if the second smallest is enough for you needs?

Chains usually wear out before cassettes? (Lots of moving parts, not the case with cassettes.) How do you wear out a single cog on a cassette? Unless it's the only one you use?



It actually "fell" a second time .......

"Slipping" on a middle cog, and only a middle cog and a replacement hanger fixed the problem?

What is slipping? Climbing onto a lower or higher gear? Once a derailleur is set up correctly, how is that possible (with a cassette and derailleur fitted correctly of course). What is the change torque load is having on the drive system? Alignment?

I've had a look at the bike in question, and the frame looks quite robust. Probably not flexing then? Could the rear triangle now be misaligned as it's been dropped a couple of times? Is the chainline where it should be? My gut feeling is there is too much sideways (chainline) deviation. It would also account for the highest gear/smallest cog wearing as it (allegedly) has. As the bike is still under warranty, I would be asking for a new cassette and new chain. But if there is excessive chainline deviation, this is going to be recurring problem, especially if the cog producing the worst deviation is the one being used the most.

There's just so much not making sense?

I just need to clarify here that the bike wasn't bought/assembled by leisure lakes. I went to them to fix an issue with a chain guard bracket which they did and i mentioned the skipping. Bike was Purchased from Woodrup in leeds which was a couple of hours drive and i just couldn't be bothered making the trip back as i dont have a big enough car to transport the bike.

Thanks for checking the warranty for me, it was something i read on other forums but i have a feeling they're gonna turn around and say it's normal 'wear and tear' and that probably wont be included.

I am happy to go on the smallest cog when cycling on a long straight road and i want to speed up but have been forced to not use it due to the skipping.

The second time the bike 'fell' it was due to a family member walking past it and it fell on the derailleur side, the shifting was fine prior to the fall after leisure lakes re-adjusted it (save for the smallest cog problem) and after the drop, it was slipping on one of the middle cogs (slipping up) and no amount of adjustment was getting the shifting right, after doing all i can, a hanger change sorted it so i can only assume it was due to the hanger being bent.

I think i've confused a bunch of people here in terms of what's going on and that is most likely on me and the vocabulary i'm using to describe what's going on. Instead here's a picture of the Cassette and two videos that are linked to shifting while on a stand and pedalling while on the smallest cog. Looking back i'm guessing you could say its 'skipping' not 'slipping' and its happening when pedalling normally as you can see in the video. I hope this clears any misunderstanding.



Here is the video of the gear skipping while pedalling in 1st. I've annotated when i did the shift to 2nd.

here is a video of the shifting while on a bike stand (was cleaning the chain today)

I should be getting my park tool chain checker tomorrow which includes a 0.5 checker. I read that 11 speed cassettes can have issues even if the chain is 0.5 worn, so it could maybe be that?

 

[saneagle]

Videos don't work.

The photo shows slight damage to the edge of the teeth because the chain has slipped. There's a bit of wear to the teeth but it doesn't look bad enough to cause slipping..

With everything you've said, I'm going to put your problem down to insufficient tension on the return part of the chain. When the bike is in top gear (smallest cog), grab hold of the lower chain run and feel how slack it is. You can increase tension a bit with the B-screw, otherwise remove a link.

 

[matthewslack]

I don't know Sunrace at first hand, but I do not see the movement of metal on the teeth tips that your pictures show with my Shimano cassettes. I suspect a quality difference.

The spec says you have an M5100 derailleur: these have a 'clutch' lever, which whatever else it does, gives higher chain tension when on.

Videos work for me. I do not like the noise in the highest (smallest) couple of gears. Sounds like chain and teeth are not well matched.

If you find you are routinely in highest gear, consider a larger chainring, then you will be pushed away from the end of the cassette, and might spread wear over more cogs.

I don't think this is going away by adjustment alone.

 

[saneagle]

The second video shows that your gears are not adjusted properly. You should be able to tune that out with the cable adjuster. You need to screw it outwards to make the cable tighter. Bottom and top gears are correct because they're controlled by the end-stops, not the cable.

 

[FastFreddy2]

The cassette ring has a ratchet spline, so it can't come undone. If it was loose, it's a manufacturing/assembly fault, which should be covered by warranty. The cassette retaining ring clamps the cassette to the freehub. It's totally unaffected by any torque or anything the rider does to the bike other than removing the wheel and loosening it with the correct tool.

Exactly. It either started off loose, or started off damaged failing to stay locked in place. How could anyone fit a rear wheel and not notice the cassette slopping around?

I wonder what shape the freehub shell is in? No report of damage when the cassette was removed so...

 

[FastFreddy2]

I mistakenly thought the chain had been checked. [Duh.]

I have bought a bunch of tools in the last few months, chain stretch checker too and so far its good.

Or maybe it has?

I should be getting my park tool chain checker tomorrow which includes a 0.5 checker. I read that 11 speed cassettes can have issues even if the chain is 0.5 worn, so it could maybe be that?

But maybe not with a good tool?

It's easy to see why L/L would say the cassette is toast. Those teeth look like they've been peened by the chain. That must have taken some doing.

Hard to imagine the chain is in good shape running over those teeth. Even if the chain hasn't "stretched" (worn) I'd be checking the inside of the links for cuts from that damage.

If the chain is in really bad shape, and the cassette needs replacing, might the chainring also be kaput?

I'm surprised the blueing (finish) on the cassette is worn as it has. I'd expect the wear to be more uniform around the whole circumference, not just the high and low points as seen in the pictures. What is not shown, is if the cassette is running true, meaning all the sprockets are parallel and each one is flat. Unlikely the axle is bent, but is it being sat in the dropouts correctly, everytime the wheel is refitted? [My first ever disc only bike a 2000? Claud Butler Cape Wrath IIRC, left the LBS with me riding it and the front QR undone. I didn't find out until a mile later, fortunately while lifting the bike into my car. Seems the shop closed last November apparently after 34 years.]

The videos were easier to watch (in fact the only way I could watch them) was to download them first from Google Drive, and play them locally on my computer.

I've watched them both about 5 times each, and I am no less confused. The movement down (hard gears to easier gears) seems to be a problem detailed in both videos, but indicated at different positions on the cassette?

Read elsewhere:

"Poor shifting down the cassette is likely caused by excess friction in the system. The cable tension may be excessive or dirt or other physical impediments to cable movements are present. So start at the beginning and inspect cabling from shifter to derailleur. Disconnect the cable from the derailleur (note whether you've correctly routed the inner cable at the pinch bolt) and taking a section of cabling at a time, manipulate the shifter while holding the inner cable taught with your fingers noting any deviation from perfectly smooth in the cable movement. Worn ferrules or kinks in the outer cable are common points of friction. You've made a lot of changes and if the same cabling was used between shifters, there's lots of opportunity to contaminate or slightly damage the inner cable at change over. Pushing inner cable through the outer moves grease along and abrades the outers' inner liner. If your cable routing is internal and where it exits the frame, if there is a cable clamping mechanism there, make sure that isn't so tight that it's making a dent in the outer cable. Lots of things to look for and excess friction is the number one cause of poor shifting especially down the cassette."

A kink in the cable, or debris somewhere could have explained the issue with the middle gear that wouldn't index correctly, but doesn't explain why a new hanger fixed the problem? As indicated earlier, if indexing for one is out, it's likely (logically) out for them all.

Doing some purchasing research about 5 weeks ago, I considered upgrading my 8 speed (3x8) which is super reliable, to something like a 3 x 9 or 2 x10. Sunrace cassettes are very attractively priced, so I considered a purchase. Further research suggested by a professional reviewer, the Sunrace cassette produced less reliable gear changes, so it left my shopping list.

Trying to find tht review, my search criteria turned up a number of results relating to the problem identified here. Apparently, the higher/smaller gears are prone to early wear, and prone to skipping, especially on e-bikes. Both Shimano and Sunrace sell these replacement rings in 'kits' for that very reason. Sometimes a move to a Shimano cassette improves things, sometimes (less frequently) a Sunrace cassette improves things. Whatever happens next, I think a new cassette and chain are on the cards for this bike.

Have you checked the wheel bearings are as tight as they should be?

If you have one of these, are you putting it on the right way around?




This is the WRONG way around as this is the return chainline heading toward the derailleur.

 

[FastFreddy2]

Zoomable recent pic, disappointingly not as distressing for bug-eyed clean chain terminally anally retentive OCD clean freak types to view.

View attachment 56337

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