German e-bike market success

[Deleted member 4366]

Did you have a look at Pedelecmonitor? That's real data about reliability.

 

[John5001]

Did you have a look at Pedelecmonitor? That's real data about reliability.

Many compilations of data. The data that matches ones opinion is usually favoured

 

[Gubbins]

Well generally speaking it was a small and inexpensive part faliur that needed a complete new motor which wasnt cheap.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Many compilations of data. The data that matches ones opinion is usually favoured

I asked, could you show me another database that shows another picture? I didn't choose that one because it matched my opinion. I've never seen another one to choose.

It seems to me that you're in some sort of denial by trying to ignore a completely open and independent public database of ebike reliability info.

 

[RobF]

Every now and again we hear of a Chinese 'no name' bike which looks the business and several people buy.

I wonder what happens to these 'bargains' after the first few weeks of use.

The last one - the name of which I forget - had a Bafang crank motor.

While the law of diminishing returns certainly applies, you get what you pay for.

The £2,000+ bike is a better, more reliable, and nicer machine than the £1,000 one.

Denying that is just plain daft.

 

[Gubbins]

Every now and again we hear of a Chinese 'no name' bike which looks the business and several people buy.

I wonder what happens to these 'bargains' after the first few weeks of use.

The last one - the name of which I forget - had a Bafang crank motor.

While the law of diminishing returns certainly applies, you get what you pay for.

The £2,000+ bike is a better, more reliable, and nicer machine than the £1,000 one.

Denying that is just plain daft.

Its all down to what you are prepared to pay. In my case in 2013 a £3000 Bosch powered Scott lasted 3 years and then with a new motor required it became more or less worthless overnight. On the other hand and for the same money I could have bought a decent hub powered Chinese bike for £1000, given it away and replaced it yearly with another brand new one for the 3 years I owned the Scott for the same money. Bosch wouldn't offer spares and would only swap a motor through a dealer so it cost me around £250 to £300 to get it repaired so I could then sell it with a clear conscience for £600
This was disappointing but it is just how life is.. Just to be clear.. I am now riding another Scott/Bosch bike and my next bike will be a RM/Bosch bike and have zero experience of Chinese hub bikes so cant really comment on their reliability or use.

 

[mike killay]

Its all down to what you are prepared to pay. In my case in 2013 a £3000 Bosch powered Scott lasted 3 years and then with a new motor required it became more or less worthless overnight. On the other hand and for the same money I could have bought a decent hub powered Chinese bike for £1000, given it away and replaced it yearly with another brand new one for the 3 years I owned the Scott for the same money. Bosch wouldn't offer spares and would only swap a motor through a dealer so it cost me around £250 to £300 to get it repaired so I could then sell it with a clear conscience for £600
This was disappointing but it is just how life is.. Just to be clear.. I am now riding another Scott/Bosch bike and my next bike will be a RM/Bosch bike and have zero experience of Chinese hub bikes so cant really comment on their reliability or use.

If you can get a new motor fitted to a Bosch for £300 I am impressed.
A new motor for my TONARO cost £300 (Motor and gearbox, Chinese tax, courier and UK Customs duty)

 

[flecc]

have zero experience of Chinese hub bikes so cant really comment on their reliability or use.

I've owned two Ezee models, both Chinese made hub motor e-bikes, one of them for twelve years since 2006. I don't know its total mileage having stopped keeping records long ago, but its probably well over 10,000 miles. In one new type battery test for the manufacturer I covered 3784 miles in six months treating it quite cruelly, story on this link.

It was also used to tow heavily loaded trailers every week in my hilly North Downs area, doing neighbourhood recycling, sample photo. For many years it was my shopping bike. Other than new batteries, no part of it has ever failed, the only wear replacements being the usual ones of brake pads and tyres, the electrics including the Bafang motor have performed perfectly.

With the possible exception of some Heinzmann kit motors, nothing in the e-bike world that has come out of Germany over the same period has come near to this reliability.
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[Gubbins]

If you can get a new motor fitted to a Bosch for £300 I am impressed.
A new motor for my TONARO cost £300 (Motor and gearbox, Chinese tax, courier and UK Customs duty)

This was an earlier classic version which had long since been superseded and ilkley cycles said they would do it at cost.. me being a regular customer an all..

 

[Nealh]

My four hubs have given very little issue apart from the odd new bearing (easy to replace) and a bit of grease at the same time, certainly less grief then the BBS 01 or the GSM have given me. Though expect the GSM with external controller would be better and not have any issues.

China kits are easy if it's not a relatively simple bearing issue, then external controllers are easy to swap out for £30 or £40. The only other real issue often battery related.

Can't say much about the closed market of Bosch,Yamaha or steps as I won't be induced in to being tied and left basically high and dry after 2 or 3 year warranty ends with an issue that can't be easily repaired at a sensible price.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Though expect the GSM with external controller would be better and not have any issues.

Over 2000 km now and issues with the 36v KT controller getting too hot since I moved up to a 12S battery...

On German e-bike success:

- Germany has an ageing population
- that population of 60 year old + are or often were at one time Green (political party) or SPD (lighter shade of green) environmentally concious
- they have substantial cash on hand
- lots of Germany is flat
- health and sport are very important in German culture

None of the above have anything to do with so called "superior German engineering". German products made in Germany are often reasonably well designed (they had one of the first design schools in the world) and of good build quality but nothing to jump over the moon about. Those would be Swiss made products... And Austria has a historical tendance to out German Germany when it comes to engineering too...

Now just imagine if the Swedes designed and build e-bikes

 

[Gubbins]

Over 2000 km now and issues with the 36v KT controller getting too hot since I moved up to a 12S battery...

On German e-bike success:

- Germany has an ageing population
- that population of 60 year old + are or often were at one time Green (political party) or SPD (lighter shade of green) environmentally concious
- they have substantial cash on hand
- lots of Germany is flat
- health and sport are very important in German culture

None of the above have anything to do with so called "superior German engineering". German products made in Germany are often reasonably well designed (they had one of the first design schools in the world) and of good build quality but nothing to jump over the moon about. Those would be Swiss made products... And Austria has a historical tendance to out German Germany when it comes to engineering too...

Now just imagine if the Swedes designed and build e-bikes

Would they be heavy with petmanently on lights?

 

[Nealh]

My 36v Lishui does the same with 12s, extra heat sink and 2x 5v cooling fan works.

 

[Gubbins]

German engineering.. thats the voor sprung dickilik thing. Init? I have a german car which is full of tech. Same tech is in a Skoda so are they both Germanly engineered?

 

[flecc]

Now just imagine if the Swedes designed and build e-bikes

So long as not by ex SAAB engineers. Car company failed and gone, their type 400 jet fighter always fatally attracted to the earth at speed.

Volvo are owned by Geely Holdings of China, so any e-bike from them would be Chinese anyway.

And one from IKEA we'd have to put together first, once we'd found all the bolts.
.

 

[cyclebuddy]

Every now and again we hear of a Chinese 'no name' bike which looks the business and several people buy.

I wonder what happens to these 'bargains' after the first few weeks of use.

The last one - the name of which I forget - had a Bafang crank motor.

​

It was the Greenway Cross City for £1000, which had a 350w 80Nm Bafang Max-Drive, pretty standard Shimano 180/160 hydraulic brakes and 9-speed Altus gearing, Samsung battery pack, and Suntour NEX forks on a Chinese frame. I bought one, as did maybe 5 other fairly vocal members here on this forum, including Brighton E-bikes. We all seemed pretty impressed with it at the time, and no-one seems to have come back here yet to comment adversely about it since... and that was back in January 2017. My own Greenway has certainly been 100% reliable.​

While the law of diminishing returns certainly applies, you get what you pay for.

The £2,000+ bike is a better, more reliable, and nicer machine than the £1,000 one.

Denying that is just plain daft.

I'd agree to a point. Many of the same parts on that £1000 Greenway e-bike are exactly the same as those found on many e-bikes (some of which are German) costing £1500-2000. Cube for example use exactly the same brakes and forks, marginally better gearing, built on a Far East frame, and use a less-powerful Bosch motor on one of their £2300 Tour bikes. It's maybe a little better, but not £1300 better.

Of those European bikes I have seen up-close and personal, the Kalkhoff impressed me greatly in terms of welding and paint finish (shame about the motor), but both an ave and R&M had some decidedly ropey welding - certainly my Chinese Greenway frame seemed far better in terms of welding and finish. So no, it's not a given that a £2000+ over-hyped branded e-bike is always better than a lower cost one without the fancy brand-name.

 

[Trevormonty]

If I wanted in cheap reliable commuter I'd go for hub drive kit. For long distance riding/tour and MTBing I prefer factory middrives as I like smooth nature power delivery of torque sensing middrives.

Bought my cube MTB because of excellent sale price would of preferred Merida but they weren't avaible at time. My wife's new bike was Bosch because we wanted interchangeable batteries but just as important was perfect fit for her with excellent features.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Every now and again we hear of a Chinese 'no name' bike which looks the business and several people buy.

I wonder what happens to these 'bargains' after the first few weeks of use.

The last one - the name of which I forget - had a Bafang crank motor.

While the law of diminishing returns certainly applies, you get what you pay for.

The £2,000+ bike is a better, more reliable, and nicer machine than the £1,000 one.

Denying that is just plain daft.

That Bafang Maxdrive motor has turned out to be the most reliable of them all. That's why you don't hear about them. Remember that it trounced the Bosch in that 24 hour race.

There's one bog problem with expensive bikes, apart from the high running costs, and that is depreciation. Look at that R & M in the Classifieds. £3200 paid. She'll be lucky to get £1500 for it with only 320 miles on the clock. She had an offer of £1750, but she turned it down. I wouldn't have! If he had bought one of those Bafang Maxdrive bikes for £1000, he'd get at least £600 for it with the same mileage on the clock, so only a £400 loss compared with at least £1450.

You need to get real. Try and be a bit more pragmatic. Base your opinions on facts rather than dreams.

 

[RobF]

That Bafang Maxdrive motor has turned out to be the most reliable of them all. That's why you don't hear about them. Remember that it trounced the Bosch in that 24 hour race.

There's one bog problem with expensive bikes, apart from the high running costs, and that is depreciation. Look at that R & M in the Classifieds. £3200 paid. She'll be lucky to get £1500 for it with only 320 miles on the clock. She had an offer of £1750, but she turned it down. I wouldn't have! If he had bought one of those Bafang Maxdrive bikes for £1000, he'd get at least £600 for it with the same mileage on the clock, so only a £400 loss compared with at least £1450.

You need to get real. Try and be a bit more pragmatic. Base your opinions on facts rather than dreams.

You were doing quite well until the end.

You keep on about the cheap Chinese stuff, maybe because it keeps you occupied fixing the endless niggles.

Pretend all you like, but most of the £1,000 Chinese ebikes fall apart under any use.

Pay two or three times that and you will generally get a more durable and reliable bike.

Push bikes are the same, except you can more or less knock a nought off.

A £150 push bike is a pile of cack, pay £400+ and you get something serviceable.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You were doing quite well until the end.

You keep on about the cheap Chinese stuff, maybe because it keeps you occupied fixing the endless niggles.

Pretend all you like, but most of the £1,000 Chinese ebikes fall apart under any use.

Pay two or three times that and you will generally get a more durable and reliable bike.

Push bikes are the same, except you can more or less knock a nought off.

A £150 push bike is a pile of cack, pay £400+ and you get something serviceable.

Because I'm pragmatic and want to base my opinions on fact, I did a specific experiment to test that. I took a cheap, well-used and under-maintained catalogue bike out of a skip, put a £10 Halfords BB on it and some new brakes, then added one of the cheapest kits there are from China. The bike was then subjected to a thousand miles of salty January roads through snow and rain with absolutely no maintenance and no cleaning. It performed faultlessly through the whole test and probably for many years thereafter for the new owner.