Freego Eagle - Conditioning New Battery

[arthur49]

Well I've completed 35 miles now on bike and still 3 out of 4 battery lights showing on controller. Under load on a steepish hill however, on medium assist, only 1 or 2 lights can be illuminated. But at rest with no load, climbs back to 3 lights quite quickly.
Handbook does not make it clear at what stage of discharge, the battery should charged.
I'm assuming from Eaglerider's posts 18 months ago that he discharged until battery protection cut in?
Is this the correct discharge state for conditioning?
Love my Freego Eagle
Arthur

 

[Scimitar]

If the BMS is doing its job, you won't damage the battery by taking it to Low Voltage Cut-off, because that's what the BMS is for (and charging, obviously).
Once you've done your initial discharge cycles, there's nothing to be gained (indeed, something to be lost) by deep discharging the battery after that. Best to keep it to less than full (approx 95%, but you're in the hands of the charger for that one) and fuller than empty (approx 15%) for better battery life. Plenty of evidence suggests that if you work the battery gently, ie, only half discharge it between charges, it will definitely last longer.


Opinions are divided on whether to condition a lithium battery, but I'm firmly of the opinion that it's beneficial and I do it with every one of mine, which is possibly why mine last so long in other devices. Panasonic were quite clear in their advice to do this with a couple of battery devices I bought, so on the principle that they know what they're talking about, I followed their advice and haven't regretted it.

 

[Taff]

Don't know about the Freego battery but on my Neo Cross (Lithium Ion) instructions are that no conditioning is necessary.

 

[Scimitar]

Don't know about the Freego battery but on my Neo Cross (Lithium Ion) instructions are that no conditioning is necessary.

Uhuh. And who would the majority of replacement battery customers go to?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Charge it every time you use it unless you only do a short journey. Try not to run it right down if you can avoid it.

The LEDs going down under load is voltage sag. After a while, you'll get to recognise their behaviour . Normally you can feel a reduction in power before you battery cuts off, which you'll also get to recognise.

 

[Taff]

Uhuh. And who would the majority of replacement battery customers go to?

So is the advice a load of ********?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

In the end, it probably doesn't make much difference. A lot of people in the trade/industry started with nicads, where conditioning was necessary, so they've sort of got it in their genes. I personally believe that's where a lot of these ideas come from. Some sophisticated batteries have proper fuel gauges in them, where you have to run the battery down to set the meter. They're an exception.

Have a look back through all the threads and see how many start " I ran my battery flat, and now my range is a lot shorter..." That's why I don't recommend running it down. There's no real danger to the cells, but the chance of cells going out of balance is much higher, and then you get premature cutting off both during the charge and discharge cycles, which causes an apparent loss of capacity. One or two people have had their BMS shut down permanently, and have had to dismantle the battery and use various measures to bring the BMS back to life. Others just gave up and bought new batteries.

Your charger already takes into consideration a safe maximum charge level to prolong the life of the batteries. You don't need to stop before you get the green light, and it's perfectly safe to leave the charger on after you get the green light, but if you don't need to, its probably safer not to.

 

[Scimitar]

So is the advice a load of ********?

Let's put it this way - I'm cynical.
I give you as example, my direct experience with an APC UPS, which only recently, after ten years of service, eventually killed its batteries.
I know for a fact that other users of the same unit had to replace batteries within four years and six years was pretty good going out of a set. APC expect that many customers will come back to them for replacements, since many people think there's something special about UPS batteries (is there nuts), but even if some get aftermarket replacements off their own bat, a sufficient number will get them from APC, thus nicely boosting APC's profits. As a comparison, the APC batteries cost about three times (or more) what a good quality battery will cost elsewhere.
Do you know why mine lasted ten years? I disabled the battery-killing 'self-test' regime in the UPS. This nasty little piece of software was designed to utterly hammer the batteries every fortnight, thus shortening their lives.
The above tale refers to lead-acid batteries, but the same principle of customers going back to the original supplier for spares is a commonplace thing. If that supplier is bending the truth a little (like APC and their battery-killing software), the customer isn't to know and just takes it on the chin.

 

[arthur49]

Thank you all for advice. Battery still going well at 46 miles! On mid-assist I'm down to red light whilst travelling (voltage sag I'm assuming) but it quickly rises to 2 lights at rest.

Now I realise my cycle computer may be inaccurate but I know from the local roads that I'm comfortably over 40 miles

Arthur

 

[Taff]

Now I realise my cycle computer may be inaccurate but I know from the local roads that I'm comfortably over 40 miles

Arthur

But ascent is important. If you do the same distance with more climbing it won't last as long.
If you use something like Cyclemeter, you can see how much climbing you do.

 

[Eaglerider]

Hi Arthur49, glad to hear you are enjoying yourself.

I originally flattened my battery to the point of low voltage cut off based solely on information gleaned from reading posts on this site. My decision to do so was not based on any data or knowledge on my part. It certainly didn't seem to do any harm, however, I would be inclined to do as D8veh says, as he is clearly far more knowledgeable about these matters than me. Certainly, if you do flatten the battery, charge it at once and don't leave it sitting around. Nowadays, I fully recharge if I do 5 or more miles, and I have never flattened the battery completely since my first ride. I also found that range appeared to increase a bit after about 300 miles, but that could well be the effects of my legs becoming more efficient.

I assume you have the 16 A/hr battery. Mine was allegedly 17.5, but I'm sure they are all the same. You will learn about power consumption with experience. On mine, when I have 2 lights showing in a static no load state, there is approximately a quarter of a tank left or less. I am of the opinion that the long range is the best bit about my Eagle. Mostly my range is limited by a sore bum more than battery range. However, if I can anticipate an opportunist top up en route, then I can do long rides on full power, including some off road stuff up on Beachy Head without any worries about running out of electrons.

My battery has shown some signs of lowering capacity, but it still has plenty enough for a 40+ mile day out. It's almost 2 years old and has done around 2500 miles. I'm sure I will get at least a couple more years out of it.

Glad you like the bike, I still love mine, and I always get a little bit excited every time I set off for a whizz.

 

[Scimitar]

I always get a little bit excited every time I set off for a whizz.

It's that age, you know. I saw my doctor about that.

 

[Eaglerider]

What did the Doctor recommend then??

 

[arthur49]

But ascent is important..

Yes and quite a few hills covered, nothing particularly long or steep. What I think I'm doing though is being over protective of motor as User Guide refers to care on steep hills to avoid strain etc. Yesterday I encountered quite a few steepish but fairly short hills................I pedalled quite hard to take some of the strain......so much so that I arrived home after 15 miles, pretty tired
Silly I know but it will come with experience

Arthur

 

[arthur49]

I assume you have the 16 A/hr battery. Mine was allegedly 17.5, but I'm sure they are all the same. my range is limited by a sore bum more than battery range.

.

Thank you Eaglerider. Yes my battery is 16Ah. and 'Yes' already my limitation is a sore bum

On a more serious note, on this, the first ''full discharge" I'll take the battery a wee bit lower and do full recharge

Arthur

Arthur

 

[Scimitar]

What did the Doctor recommend then??

Why, more cycling, of course.

 

[arthur49]

Well went for a 5 mile 'whizz' last night taking total to 51 miles. Down to red light only but no detectable loss of power. At rest still red light only.
Strangely User Guide makes no mention of conditioning battery. Dealer said to condition twice.
So I decided to do a full charge last night and when we went to bed it had taken 4.5 hours and not full.
I will now revert to 'normal' discharge/charge regime so thank you all for advice
Arthur

 

[Eaglerider]

Yesterday I encountered quite a few steepish but fairly short hills................I pedalled quite hard to take some of the strain......so much so that I arrived home after 15 miles, pretty tired
Silly I know but it will come with experience

Arthur

I think the edicts about not straining the motor in the handbook refer to the practice of throttling the motor to the point of stalling. This would of course bring about overheating. I guess they have to state the obvious, as there is always some numpty that will hold the throttle open wide trying to start on a steep hill with no forward motion.

I try to maintain at least 6 to 7 mph minimum in bottom gear for serious hill climbing and have never had a problem. Probably the most aggressive climbing I do is going up Firle Beacon or joining the south downs way from Jevington. This is very steep, and challenging to walk up without taking a breather half way up. After powering up at around 5 or 6 mph I could not detect any evidence of heating of the motor. I do work the bike hard sometimes, but have had no issues.

Like all things, it's common sense, so don't bust a gut Arthur!!

 

[arthur49]

Update

We love these bikes - my wife has one too!

I am comfortably getting well over 40 miles on a full 16Ah battery. I'm now appreciating the thing has a lot of grunt going up hills and I don't need to bust a gut to alleviate strain on motor etc. Never been any hint of motor struggling and I can feel myself getting fitter as I want to contribute effort without killing myself........though my bum is not yet 'run in'!!

Issues - nothing serious: mudguards tend to rattle against frame; dealer said 65psi on tyres which is the max shown on tyre wall but I've reduced pressures to 55psi (handbook says 50psi) and this has improved the ride. On 65psi I was in danger of losing fillings; usual stretched cables in use easily adjusted so brakes and gears work great. Biggest niggle is the rubbers on centre stand tend to fall off - lost one already: probably a dab of epoxy in bottom of rubber will hold them firm...........

Brill. Love it

Arthur

 

[jackhandy]

You seem to have the bike sussed now, Arthur: Maybe a different saddle or suspension seatpost is called for, but don't rush that as long as the twinges don't spoil your rides

I run my tyres at about 55psi too, when I remember to check them before a ride: Those on the bouncer about 45-ish for offroad. It's a very personal thing, as long as you don't feel significant drag; unlike the bloke who runs his at 30psi and can't understand why he can't pedal past the 15.5mph power cutoff!