Food for thought

[SRS]

Been reading the forum for some months. It appear that there are two distinct groups.

Those who feel that they must obey whatever the laws say, whether it makes sense or not and those who make up their own minds as to their requirements and do what ever they feel suits them. Assuming common sense and safety in mind with this option.

Both myself and partners e-bikes are set form a maximum of 15.5mph. My partners being fixed and mine adjustable for private road use.

I happen to feel that the new German 28mph figure, road use only, would bring electric bikes to a new level and make many more take up the option as day to day transport.

The UK powers that be however differ. Shame.

Anyway, as a recent experiment, I acquired a carbon monoxide breath level meter.

I rode through my local city at rush hour, setting maximum 15 mph, at end of trip my reading was 5ppm. Associated with this trip was the usual carving up by buses and motorists that could not wait a few seconds.

My second trip was with my cycle set at 28 mph. Absolutely brilliant, I was able to keep up and exceed the speed of the general traffic. No carving up, nobody speeding past me and turning left at the last minute. Much safer, far less differential speed between myself and motorists. Actually felt much safer.

Same trip but quicker and safer, carbon monoxide levels after this trip, was 2ppm.

I shall make my own conclusions on health and safety on this one but would be interested in your comments.

As a note, I am not advocating 28mph for cycle paths I always stick to 15.5mph or less here unless I am on my non electric cycle.

Do the Germans have the right idea?

 

[tillson]

Do the Germans have the right idea?

Probably, but it will never happen here. I think we are stuck with the present legislation.

 

[amigafan2003]

"Laws are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools."
(Solon, the Lawmaker of Athens, d. 559 BC)

I don't mind people religiously adhering to laws - even foolish or inappropriate ones (laws that is, not people - although that might still apply!).

The kind of people I dislike are the ones that insist the same blind obedience should be demonstrated by others.

"An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts punishment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law. "
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. "
Albert Einstein

"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. "
Winston Churchill

All quotes that are applicable to the current ebike law I find.


And I'm the same as you - 25mph+ on the roads or the prom where there are no ped's about. 16mph (or slower if needed) when it's busy with peds or coming up to blind corners etc.

That's the trouble with the ebike law - it's to protect other people from those that don't have "bike sense". Hell, there are enough dangerous cyclists that pootle along at 12mph as it is!

 

[jazper53]

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth.
JFK

 

[Scimitar]

I'm just waiting for Judge Dreddie to come along.

"I AM THE LOW!"

 

[amigafan2003]

Oh, and before the old "illegal ebikers will end up spoiling it for the rest of us" line is trotted out.......

You don't see cars being banned everytime someone does 100mph up the m6 do you?

 

[Geebee]

Amigafan2003, a more accurate comparison to most of the illegal bikes I have seen would be fitting a V8 into an original Morris Minor with no other upgrades. Strangely enough doing that to a car is banned.

I try to obey the law, as disregarding them can have consequences.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Interesting results and the conclusions may well be valid, but I think that you'd need to repeat the tests many times to confirm the pattern of results. Personally, i'd prefer to have a class of electric bike above what's presently legal. I'd be happy if you could take your bike somewhere locally for a basic one-off test of brakes, steering and electrical safety to certify safe operation up to a certain speed - say 25mph - and then allow it's use with an ID plate, helmet and cheap insurance. Presently. it's very difficult to get a 20mph bike allowed on the road by any means. Maybe if enough people do it illegally, it'll make a bit of pressure to do something to make it legal. By the time you get to 30mph, a proper restricted motorcycle would be a better option whether it's electric or petrol.

 

[Scimitar]

Amigafan2003, a more accurate comparison to most of the illegal bikes I have seen would be fitting a V8 into an original Morris Minor with no other upgrades. Strangely enough doing that to a car is banned.

Maybe where you are.

 

[amigafan2003]

Amigafan2003, a more accurate comparison to most of the illegal bikes I have seen would be fitting a V8 into an original Morris Minor with no other upgrades. Strangely enough doing that to a car is banned.

Erm' no it isn't. I've done pretty much exactly that with a capri and a 2.9l v6 cosworth engine making 250bhp. Passed its mot no probs every year.

 

[Old_Dave]

Lol, but Morris minors had very suspect bottom joints on the front end, that were very prone to falling apart (similar to the std triumph herald), where as the Capri was a lot better and stronger design



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Geebee]

So you bolted in a bigger heavier motor higher powered with no chassis, suspension, brake, wheel mods and it passes rego?
Oh a Capri not exactly a Morris Minor then.

 

[tillson]

Oh, and before the old "illegal ebikers will end up spoiling it for the rest of us" line is trotted out.......

You don't see cars being banned everytime someone does 100mph up the m6 do you?

I look forward to your direction on what constitutes acceptable construction and use of an ebike so that I may be guided by the dark lamp of your stupidity.

 

[flecc]

I happen to feel that the new German 28mph figure, road use only, would bring electric bikes to a new level and make many more take up the option as day to day transport.

The UK powers that be however differ. Shame.

Germany has exactly the same law for pedelecs as we in the UK have. The 28 mph class is a separate one with some motor vehicle type restrictions like registration and plate, compulsory insurance and no access at any time or in any circumstance to cycle paths etc. So not exactly bureaucracy-free electric assisted cycling.

You can do the same here in the UK, buy that type of assisted bike and with it's prior EU type approval register it and add the number plate, these models often have the bracket ready for that to be fixed to, get moped insurance and wear the compulsory light helmet. Vehicle VED is necessary but it's free. So slightly more restrictive and as in Germany, no more use of cyclepaths ever.

 

[Jeremy]

The thing I find very curious is that some people seem to think that if their ebike is restricted to only providing power assist to 25 km/h and the power is restricted to 250W then it is legal.

The law is a little like being pregnant when it comes to definitions of legal and illegal; there are no allowances for "almost legal", or "meets the spirit of the law".

The legality situation is very clear. To be legal any ebike used on any road, path, track or area of land that can be accessed by the public has to either be approved to the UK EAPC regulations (and have the appropriate plate on the frame declaring this, with the required data) or it has to be approved to the EU EPAC regulations and have a Type Approval certificate showing compliance with EN19154.

In practice there are thousands of illegal ebikes in use on UK roads and paths. I've repaired dozens of ebikes for people over the last few years and only ever seen one that was actually legal (a Kalkhoff). Many of those I've seen that claimed to meet the UK regulations clearly hadn't ever been approved against them - none carried a data plate, for example. I won't name names here, but I've seen three different fairly well-known brands (some have been advertised on this web site) that weren't actually legal in terms of approval, which is a little surprising.

AFAICS, the route for approving ebikes against the UK EAPC regulations isn't easy, particularly the need to test the motor power to a very old BS test method, by an accredited test house. This may well be why so many manufacturers/importers just ignore the law and sell bikes regardless, often with just a bland statement that their ebikes comply.

The situation with ebikes approved to the EU EPAC regulations is clearer and it seems that the majority of bikes that come from the EU, rather than directly from the Far East, may be legal, in that most seem to be correctly Type Approved.

Almost by definition, any DIY ebike built from a kit, irrespective of power output or speed, will probably be illegal. The reason is down to the need for the builder (the owner usually for an ebike built from a kit) to:

1) Either get the motor (as fitted to the particular bike with that bikes controller and battery) tested by an accredited test house to the old BS 1727: 1971, or:

2) Get the completed ebike Type Approved to EN19154 by an accredited test house.

Either of the above options are probably impractical and prohibitively expensive.

In practice things seem to be fine, with a general acceptance that illegal ebikes are ignored by the authorities in the main. Personally I have no problem with that at all, it makes sense for as long as ebike users continue to ride at similar speeds to ordinary pedal cycles.

In my view the law needs a bit of an overhaul, with a relaxation of the regulatory requirement and a simple set of requirements that could be checked at the roadside easily, such as a requirement for a maximum weight and a maximum no pedalling assist speed. This would satisfy the safety requirement (which is driven primarily by the ability of the bike to cause injury or damage). This would make life a lot easier for manufacturers and retailers, reduce overheads and hopefully reduce prices (and bear in mind that the majority of the sub-£1000 ebikes sold here are probably illegal........).

I do have a real problem with the hypocrits who ride illegal ebikes and then preach in a "holier than thou" manner to those they see as being "more illegal". The reality is that the law doesn't distinguish between degrees of illegality in terms of guilt or innocence.

 

[jazper53]

The reality is that the law doesn't distinguish between degrees of illegality in terms of guilt or innocence.

Nice thought, but it does, if you got a good lawyer

 

[Jeremy]

Nice thought, but it does, if you got a good lawyer

Not true, I'm afraid. This is Statute Law, and as such guilt or innocence is wholly dependent on compliance with the relevant Statute.

If found guilty of breaching the Statute in question, but you provided evidence that subsequent testing had shown that the ebike in question complied, or was close to be compliant, with either set of regulations, then that would be useful mitigation that may reduce the sentence. It wouldn't, however, mean that you could be found not guilty in this case.

[Edited to add: Not sure what happened there. For some reason your quote seems to have changed (I didn't change it at all)]

 

[jazper53]

I added a proviso before you posted

 

[Jeremy]

I added a proviso before you posted

Ah, one of the pitfalls of near-simultaneous posting I suspect!

 

[Jeremy]

This thread has prompted me to do a bit of ad hoc searching around UK ebike vendor web sites to see how up front they are about legality. I won't name names, as that seems somewhat unfair, but it does seem that several are, shall we say, a little coy about the legal side of things.

For example, some make rather bland statements like "all motors as supplied are speed restricted to comply with legislation", "meet European standards", "use only legal (EN15194) hub motors" or "Power is 250W. Speed is 15.5mph. Both are the maximum limit allowed by EU regulation" but don't actually give any evidence of compliance. One or two are very clear that they comply, even going so far as to provide copies of the Type Approval certificate. One or two quite clearly don't comply with the law, and several make statements that are at best somewhat ambiguous. One well known manufacturer apparently claims compliance with the UK EAPC regulations, but having worked on three of these bikes I know for certain that they don't have a data plate and I'm fairly certain that the motor power and battery voltage haven't been tested to the required British Standard.

The inevitable conclusion I've drawn is that, in reality, many of the ebikes being sold today may not comply with the law, as surely if you are in full compliance you would, as some do, advertise the fact.

If you are one of those who feel strongly about legality (and I know there are some on here that do) then I suggest you check to see if your own ebike has either a clear and unambiguous statement that the bike (NOT just the motor) has been shown to comply with EN15194, or that it has evidence of compliance with the EAPC regulations and is fitted with the appropriate data plate, supported by evidence from the ebike manufacturer that the motor and battery data complies with BS1727 :1971.

If your bike has neither of these, then in simple terms it isn't legal, irrespective of the stated motor power or bike speed.

I suspect this really is "Food For Thought"............