First ladies ebike recommendations

[Lilliput]

I'm brand new to the world of ebikes and slightly overwhelmed by the choice! I'd love some recommendations, either for specific bikes or for general things I should be looking for.

Budget is around £2K.

I'm 5'3 and slight, looking for a step through, upright bike which could take a child seat on the back rack.

Battery-wise I don't need a huge range as it'll mostly be used for pottering around town. Terrain is fairly flat but I'm not a strong cyclist so when there is a hill I need some help! But I don't know what that translates to in terms of power/torque.

Thanks in advance

 

[Woosh]

I am yes, the ones I've seen normally only fit a round tube, good to see the Hamax can deal with the wires section on your bikes.

wires? they have been channelled years ago. The clamp can deal with slightly wider tubes.

 

[Artstu]

wires? they have been channelled years ago.

Yes that's what I meant, the extra alloy section covering the wires.

 

[Woosh]

Yes that's what I meant, the extra alloy section covering the wires.

The Hamax clamp has long bolts. It can accommodate slightly wider tubes.

 

[MelbournePark]

I am buying two e-bikes, but I am in Australia.

But I have tested a few bikes. It seems our ebikes are cheaper here, probably due to our closeness to China, and no import duties.

I've read that while mid drives do wear the chain more, that does depend on the type of riding.

I've also read that if one doesn't use the gears on a mid bike, and for instance, leave the bike in its 7th or top gear (out of a typical 8 speed derailler gearbox) then doing so will heat up the motor more than using the gears. Making a motor work hard is more likely to wear the motor.

I've also read that while hub motors are more simple, they are more prone to overheating. This issue typically happens on a hill climb, where the motor is going flat out for a longer time, and hence it overheats and can stop due to heat protection. In the same circumstance, a mid motor setup with a rider using its gears, will not overheat.

Also, a central motor bike is easier to change a tyre/remove a wheel - because there are no electrics required to connect to the hub motor. I've read reports that hub motors that have had their electronics disconnected, can be difficult to properly re-connect. With a mid motor setup, because the motor is in the middle, changing the tyres is just the same as with a normal bike.

I have also read that the centre motor gives a more balanced ride, due to the weight being both lower than a hub motor, and also due to the motor being in the middle of the wheelbase.

But a mid motor setup is heavier. My data shows it costs an extra one kilogram, in a folding bike configuration bike.

For my riding, I would consider a hub motor. But I find a "cadence" setup (where the motor engages when the pedals rotate) as being close to dangerous. While variable power settings lowers the danger, the whole feel is instantaneous and not intuitive. But a hub motor might be OK IMO, if it had torque sensing on the pedals. But so far, only one brand has that combination, and I am yet to trial that bike.

Ensure you ride the bike. I thought I found the perfect bike (although it was heavy and I am buying folding bikes) : the he gear (out of a typical 8 speed derailler gearbox) had an 8 speed internal hub gearbox, so the gears could be changed while stationary; it had a central motor; a big battery too. And it weighed the same a sister bike that had a derailler gearbox and hub motor. But the hub motor bike felt powerful. The mid motor version felt very slow. How come? It is certainly not the concept - but somehow, the maker has done a very poor job on the motor, which felt quite marginal ie lacked power).

its very important to ride the bike before buying.

 

[StuartsProjects]

Sounds like most all hub gear eBikes are a waste of space ?

Yet countless numbers of eBikes use them with no problem at all, including me.

But I find a "cadence" setup (where the motor engages when the pedals rotate) as being close to dangerous.

Odd comment, why dangerous ?

 

[Nealh]

Another strange poster or spammer, almost as strange as the other thread about the poster taping cotton wool buds to his step thru so it doesn't break.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

I am buying two e-bikes, but I am in Australia.

But I have tested a few bikes. It seems our ebikes are cheaper here, probably due to our closeness to China, and no import duties.

I've read that while mid drives do wear the chain more, that does depend on the type of riding.

I've also read that if one doesn't use the gears on a mid bike, and for instance, leave the bike in its 7th or top gear (out of a typical 8 speed derailler gearbox) then doing so will heat up the motor more than using the gears. Making a motor work hard is more likely to wear the motor.

I've also read that while hub motors are more simple, they are more prone to overheating. This issue typically happens on a hill climb, where the motor is going flat out for a longer time, and hence it overheats and can stop due to heat protection. In the same circumstance, a mid motor setup with a rider using its gears, will not overheat.

Also, a central motor bike is easier to change a tyre/remove a wheel - because there are no electrics required to connect to the hub motor. I've read reports that hub motors that have had their electronics disconnected, can be difficult to properly re-connect. With a mid motor setup, because the motor is in the middle, changing the tyres is just the same as with a normal bike.

I have also read that the centre motor gives a more balanced ride, due to the weight being both lower than a hub motor, and also due to the motor being in the middle of the wheelbase.

But a mid motor setup is heavier. My data shows it costs an extra one kilogram, in a folding bike configuration bike.

For my riding, I would consider a hub motor. But I find a "cadence" setup (where the motor engages when the pedals rotate) as being close to dangerous. While variable power settings lowers the danger, the whole feel is instantaneous and not intuitive. But a hub motor might be OK IMO, if it had torque sensing on the pedals. But so far, only one brand has that combination, and I am yet to trial that bike.

Ensure you ride the bike. I thought I found the perfect bike (although it was heavy and I am buying folding bikes) : the he gear (out of a typical 8 speed derailler gearbox) had an 8 speed internal hub gearbox, so the gears could be changed while stationary; it had a central motor; a big battery too. And it weighed the same a sister bike that had a derailler gearbox and hub motor. But the hub motor bike felt powerful. The mid motor version felt very slow. How come? It is certainly not the concept - but somehow, the maker has done a very poor job on the motor, which felt quite marginal ie lacked power).

its very important to ride the bike before buying.

I think as a general rule hub motors cool better than mid-drive but there are so many variables that you have to look at specifics. I can imagine a very small geared hub motor having thermal issues but generally most hub motors have a lot more surface area and the outer case rotates to create a fan effect giving a cooling effect as you ride. In the case of a direct drive hub motor the outer body is even larger and there are no mechanical parts inside causing friction so they can be excellent for cooling especially if you are using ferrofluid in them. Mid-drive motors are based around much smaller higher rpm motors which generate more heat and typically have a lot of mechanical parts to achieve the necessary torque to the crank. One of the main benefits they have is the controller board is built in to the motor assembly and would normally monitor temperature so as the temperature heats up the controller will reduce the power to the motor to achieve better cooling. I'm sure they have this down to a fine art now with the right algorithms so it will reduce power ahead of any runaway thermal effect. However this does mean that on a long hill the mid-drive motor is the most likely to reduce power the further up the hill you get whereas other motor types maybe able to achieve a more consistent torque level up long hills. Many direct drive hub motors would have no problem keeping to the same torque level as when they started the hill at the end. However in all motor types there is a point where if you provide them too much power you achieve little extra torque and create a lot of heat especially if the rider doesn't assist the motor going up the hill. Pre-built ebikes tend to have better thermal characteristics than some kit ebikes as people like to push motors for maximum power even if that is wasteful of battery power.

However as said previously its all about specifics and you'd have to look at designs individually to understand how they perform.

 

[matthewslack]

Motors heat up when worked hard, or when worked inefficiently.

A crank drive, designed to work through the gears, persistently starting off in high gear rather than changing down is number 2, and if it causes problems it is user error, not the fault of the machine.

 

[MelbournePark]

Sounds like most all hub gear eBikes are a waste of space ?

Yet countless numbers of eBikes use them with no problem at all, including me.



Odd comment, why dangerous ?

Only because if one is going around a corner slowly and the pedals are rotating, one gets the full power and the bike pulls at its power setting. This was the situation with our trial runs. I guess one learns not to pedal in a tight corner, or to corner with some brake on. Or turn down the assist level or turn it off. But we both found the feel of the bike non intuitive. I think a torque sensor would much improve the feel of a hub drive motor. The technology is common now and probably hardly costs much. There is a bike Costco for sale, for $Au999, and it has a torque sensor. However, it is a single speed. But I think the technology for a hub drive is worthwhile.

I think for a mid drive, its essential to have torque sensing, because one can lessen the pressure on the pedals while changing gears, which lessens the power going onto the de-railler (or internal hub gear) gears, which preserves the gears. You have to pedal to change gears on a de-railer gear setup. With a central motor, if one has the power turned up, that would mean when changing to another gear on the de-railer, the cassette / chain etc would get the full power of the motor, which would wear the cassette etc. But with a torque sensor, one can peddle less hard during the gear change, and hence lower the motor power ouput, and preserve the gears. In fact that is common changing gear railer gears. That's not an issue with a hub drive bike as the motor drive is independent of the gears.

 

[cyclebuddy]

Only because if one is going around a corner slowly and the pedals are rotating, one gets the full power and the bike pulls at its power setting. This was the situation with our trial runs.

You're making sweeping assumptions that all e-bikes behave the way the few (apparently very few) you've ridden do. They don't. Whether hub driven or mid-driven, much of the way an e-bike behaves is down to how the controller has been programmed, and that can vary wildly. Only the very cheapest cadence systems behave in the way you describe; better ones apply power (current) in a more progressive manner.

 

[MelbournePark]

That's why I road tested bikes before buying.

And the bikes I described as feeling somewhat out of control, are popular bikes in Germany, Spain, the UK, etc. The ones I tested cost in for instance Germany, 2,700 euro, and 2,100 euro.

These days too, how can we trust a component which is made in China, has a brand, and has a model number, if its electronic? IMO the only way is to ride the thing. The amount of outsourcing, component changes, QC, design changes, differing installed gear depending on area sold and even date ... all these factors adds up to uncertainty about functions.

And who knows - I may hate the feel of your bike. Or love it!!

My point here is really, test ride, and then make sure your purchase feels just the same as your test ride did (if not better).

 

[MelbournePark]

And about hub drives overheating - I have read reports of bikes where up long hills, the hub motor looses power and then looses all power. I have also read reports that say hub motors are better suited to long road rides, and BMX riders are better suited by mid drive motors.

As Bonzo Banana said in his / her excellent post preceding, there are many different types of motors, and control systems.

While we can assume there is a correlation between price paid and the quality of the electronics including the motor, IMO its not easy for people to establish what is going on.

I also think that - and this is my opinion from bike tests - that a central motor will have an easier job going up a hill, if the rider slows downs, and uses a lower ratio gear. This is due to the mechanical advantage that the motor enjoys via gears.

But for sure - poorer cooling, a cheap motor, etc., may still result in a poor product.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

And about hub drives overheating - I have read reports of bikes where up long hills, the hub motor looses power and then looses all power. I have also read reports that say hub motors are better suited to long road rides, and BMX riders are better suited by mid drive motors.

As Bonzo Banana said in his / her excellent post preceding, there are many different types of motors, and control systems.

While we can assume there is a correlation between price paid and the quality of the electronics including the motor, IMO its not easy for people to establish what is going on.

I also think that - and this is my opinion from bike tests - that a central motor will have an easier job going up a hill, if the rider slows downs, and uses a lower ratio gear. This is due to the mechanical advantage that the motor enjoys via gears.

But for sure - poorer cooling, a cheap motor, etc., may still result in a poor product.

While I agree a mid-motor will have an easier job going up a hill as the power is scaled through the gears and if you are in a very low gear you get maximum torque there are still advantages to hub motors for going up hills. The fact is because its independent of the drivetrain every single gear can have maximum assistance from the motor which lets say is 65Nm for a high power hub motor. So you can tackle a hill in a mid-gear and still have full assistance from the hub motor. However on a mid-drive motor with lets say 85Nm it may be you get 90Nm for its lowest gear but its very slow with a high cadence and then as you go higher you get 70Nm, 50Nm, 40Nm, 30Nm, 20Nm, 10Nm etc so the faster you go the less assistance you get. Also on a hub motor ebike you can change gear without issue whenever you want its not a problem. Start the hill in a higher gear and move to a lower gear as necessary. Yes peak torque is better for high performance mid-drive motors and if they have mountain bike gearing this can give fantastic torque for hill climbs. I can't argue against that which is why for me mid-drive is necessary for a e-mountain bike.

As you can see in some instances the hub motor will outperform the mid-drive up hills (mainly less steep hills) because its power isn't scaled through the gears its independent.

Obviously on flat ground hub motors typically feel more powerful than mid-drive as again you get full power. This can be good for safety when moving away from junctions etc.

I personally think for road use hub motors are far superior and you can have a torque sensor setup like a mid-drive motor if you want but my preference is a throttle where you just control power exactly when you want it. Others prefer a torque sensor. I'm personally not that keen on cadence sensors.

 

[MelbournePark]

Yes it all depends on the bike and the setup.

My best friend's daughter was a professional road racer. She won some Euro top classifications, was injured for the last Olympics, and then retired. She is now pregnant, so things went well for her. She put on 10kg within a 6 months of retiring - she was very thin as a cyclist. She was a hill climber.

Now - those people have wattage outputs, the team looks at all those figures. And when the pressure is on, their wattage output is pretty constant, until they hit the wall.

The reality is that gears assist riders. While a hub motor does too - there are several areas where a gearbox outperforms a hub motor. And for on road riders, its illegal to go over quite low speed limits. At between 25 KMH and 32 KMH, in most parts of the world, the motor aid is not allowed to work above those speed limits.

So the power of the motor is irrelevant at above legal motor assistant speeds. One could have a 1500 watt motor, but what good would it be, if the ground is flat and the bike is at its legal speed limit?

So - the question really is IMO - when does a motor give a big benefit? Obviously below the speed limit. And all motors will achieve the speed limit on flat roads.

While there are also polar moment of inertia issues, and also centre of gravity issues, the key IMO is to ride bikes and find one which best suits or feels best to ride.

The issue really, is what works best on a steep hill. And that is just where a centre drive setup is most effective.

The gearing issue depends on the gearing!! The gears do not remove the power. The power doesn't disappear! Cadel Evans - or Jonas Vingegaard - working down a hill - or up the hill - all his power is being transmitted to his bike. The gears don't remove his wattage. The gear choice is up to him! His brain decides the best gear to best utilise his power!

If one picks the correct gear, that power is most efficiently being put into forward motion. The rider makes that choice! All the torque of the motor - less friction losses - does get to the road. The gearing doesn't loose the power. It all goes into forward motion. Less friction!

Flat roads are only relevant if we talk about battery efficiency. And a hub motor all other things being the same, will be more efficient there. IMO!!! And efficiency depends on what one wants the bike for.

And in my country - actually I should change that - in my country's State (or Province/Region etc) hand throttles change the definition of the bike. They are not supposed to be legal in my State, although some bike makers do sell their e-bikes with hand throttles.

Its an interesting discussion!

 

[StuartsProjects]

Only because if one is going around a corner slowly and the pedals are rotating, one gets the full power and the bike pulls at its power setting. This was the situation with our trial runs. I guess one learns not to pedal in a tight corner, or to corner with some brake on.

I automatically, without thinking, use the brakes and\or stop pedaling, to control my speed to an appropriate level when going around corners.

 

[Woosh]

Only because if one is going around a corner slowly and the pedals are rotating, one gets the full power and the bike pulls at its power setting. This was the situation with our trial runs.

you were given a bad cadence sensored hub bike to test.
A modern controller reduces its power to keep you pedalling at all times if you slow down your pedalling when you go round a corner for example.
That is an important point to keep in mind. If your test bike does not do this, ask for another one.
Controllers respond more quickly to a torque sensor than a cadence sensor because cadence sensor requires more intensive computing but the difference in response time is not very big, we are talking about may be a few tenths of a second here. You soon won't take much notice. The advantage of cadence sensor over torque sensor is that cadence sensor lets you ride up a hill with much more ease.

 

[MikelBikel]

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[Bonzo Banana]

Yes it all depends on the bike and the setup.

My best friend's daughter was a professional road racer. She won some Euro top classifications, was injured for the last Olympics, and then retired. She is now pregnant, so things went well for her. She put on 10kg within a 6 months of retiring - she was very thin as a cyclist. She was a hill climber.

Now - those people have wattage outputs, the team looks at all those figures. And when the pressure is on, their wattage output is pretty constant, until they hit the wall.

The reality is that gears assist riders. While a hub motor does too - there are several areas where a gearbox outperforms a hub motor. And for on road riders, its illegal to go over quite low speed limits. At between 25 KMH and 32 KMH, in most parts of the world, the motor aid is not allowed to work above those speed limits.

So the power of the motor is irrelevant at above legal motor assistant speeds. One could have a 1500 watt motor, but what good would it be, if the ground is flat and the bike is at its legal speed limit?

So - the question really is IMO - when does a motor give a big benefit? Obviously below the speed limit. And all motors will achieve the speed limit on flat roads.

While there are also polar moment of inertia issues, and also centre of gravity issues, the key IMO is to ride bikes and find one which best suits or feels best to ride.

The issue really, is what works best on a steep hill. And that is just where a centre drive setup is most effective.

The gearing issue depends on the gearing!! The gears do not remove the power. The power doesn't disappear! Cadel Evans - or Jonas Vingegaard - working down a hill - or up the hill - all his power is being transmitted to his bike. The gears don't remove his wattage. The gear choice is up to him! His brain decides the best gear to best utilise his power!

If one picks the correct gear, that power is most efficiently being put into forward motion. The rider makes that choice! All the torque of the motor - less friction losses - does get to the road. The gearing doesn't loose the power. It all goes into forward motion. Less friction!

Flat roads are only relevant if we talk about battery efficiency. And a hub motor all other things being the same, will be more efficient there. IMO!!! And efficiency depends on what one wants the bike for.

And in my country - actually I should change that - in my country's State (or Province/Region etc) hand throttles change the definition of the bike. They are not supposed to be legal in my State, although some bike makers do sell their e-bikes with hand throttles.

Its an interesting discussion!

Not all mid-drive motors are powerhouses. Bosch mid-drive motors start at 40Nm and you lose about 2Nm through the chain and many of those bikes don't have 1:1 or lower gearing so you lose some of that power. You can effectively end up with about 30Nm torque and most hub motors will easily beat that up hills. You also get low weight mid-drive motors for lighter e-mountain bikes which are fairly low power. Many mid-drive motor ebikes configured for road use aren't actually that great for hills.

However yes e-mountain bikes with powerful mid-drive motors are great for hills no question but its surprising how many people buy these low power mid-drive ebikes and personally I can't see the point of them at all. Expensive to buy, unreliable, proprietary parts and often uneconomic to repair after a few years so a throwaway product. Then you have accelerated drivetrain wear which admittedly won't be as bad with a low power mid-drive motor unit.

On another forum there is a member (Drago I think) who has a Trek e-bike and a cheap Suntour HESC ebike from Halfords (Carrera model) and he finds the Carrera model slightly better up hills. In theory there is 15-20Nm difference as the Carrera is 65Nm and the Trek is 80-85Nm I think but in real world use the Carrera is better. I can't validate this but I suspect maybe the gearing isn't that low on the bike or maybe he doesn't like going up hills really slowly so favours avoiding the very lowest gears but in real world use for him the Trek is weaker/slower up hills. The Trek cost a huge amount more than the Carrera and from what I understand the Carrera is the workhorse and has been ridden for many thousands of miles too well beyond the Trek's use if I remember rightly.

Ultimately you have to look at the full spec to understand its hill climbing ability and that is the gearing, the wheel size, the motor, maybe even the battery and at the end of it how it has been configured. You can't assume a hub motor or mid-drive motor is stronger up hills you have to look at the full details.

Most ebikes in the world have throttles it is the default control when you look across the world where there are high sales of ebikes well beyond figures in Europe and in China the average price of a ebike is only around $200 or was a few years ago and they sell a huge amount of ebikes per year many of which use much safer lead acid gel batteries. Across Asia, South America, Africa etc price is a major consideration and according to Chinese industry statistics from a few years ago over 95% of ebikes sold in the world (made in China) are hub motor based which obviously is mostly about pricing I'm sure. Even that 5% isn't only mid-drive motors as in India and some countries brushed motor ebikes are very common because they are the cheapest entry point for a ebike at around $50 for a kit and then lead acid batteries on top.

While China makes a huge number of ebikes for export, 85% of what they make is for their own market and it has been reported that China has more ebikes than cars. Tariffs and unfair legislation keeps ebike prices higher in Europe so market saturation of ebikes is far less. The average price of an ebike in Europe is many times that of in China. The US is somewhere in the middle.

Just making the point that mid-drive isn't really significant on a world scale. Even in the UK the average price of a bicycle/ebike is only about £400 and that statistic doesn't allow for many high end mid-drive ebikes to be sold. It's a niche product but marketed much more aggressively as there is a much larger margin to such ebikes. So many have a skewed/false idea of the ebike market. Most ebike riders have hub motor based ebikes.

 

[guerney]

Only because if one is going around a corner slowly and the pedals are rotating, one gets the full power and the bike pulls at its power setting. This was the situation with our trial runs. I guess one learns not to pedal in a tight corner, or to corner with some brake on.

That issue can be mitigated by changing a Bafang BBS01B firmware setting, after which there is a more gradual application of power - it's the first change I made, to make safe U-turns possible without the need to reduce or turn off pedal assistance.

 

[MelbournePark]

Bonzo, thanks for the statistics. I'll comment further when I have time.