First Build - What's your recommendation?

[ben619]

Hello,

I already own a couple of folding eebs which i purchased recently. They are great fun and thanks to the awesome advice of Nealh now fully working and running like a dream! We have a self built campervan so the folding bikes are perfect for that especially.

I was a full time cyclist up until 2 years ago when i was diagnosed suddenly with Menieres Disease. Subsequently my fitness level dropped, confidence went and im left with 50% deafness, tinnitus & fatigue.

Now the folding bikes have been great as i have managed more miles on them than my normal bikes for obvious reasons, the ability to have the assistance is just amazing, but not quite satisfying my needs when riding, i.e trail riding etc. - I need to be back at full size.

I currently own Yeti 575, Gazelle Champion mondial, '21 Kona Lava dome hardtail, and lots of parts and frames. (All of which have sat quietly for the 2 year period)

I would like to build a totally legal 250w 36v hardtail based on my spare frame a Orange Evo 2 circa '98 that has disc mounts etc. Would like to have an 8 speed Shimano XT groupset on it.

My questions are. What would you recommend buying either a hub motor of Mid drive?
Bafang or another brand? (my onlky experience is the Bafang on my folding Furo X and its a right old laugh) Best Place to purchase? I was considering second hand but not sure if thats a good idea.


The hub motor would need to fit an 8 speed cassette, not freewheel

Having read through lots of posts with what people recommend it has left me confused as to what i want. My budget would not be the best unless i sold one of my other bikes but i dont really want to, for now, in case i ever get to use them properly again.

Please find a few pictures attached of what i currently have and the Slime green frame in question

Hope i havent bored anyone to death!

Cheers!

 

[Nealh]

The Orange deserves a mid motor one can use a bbs01b 250 36v,
Or the ultra light Gospade clone.
Wholesale 36V 250W engine kit brushless electric bicycle motor with battery Electric bike mid drive motor kits|Tool Parts| - AliExpress

 

[ben619]

What are the advantages of mid drive compared to hub, Neal? That looks like a cool kit, not seen that on my searches.

 

[soundwave]

 

[guerney]

Or the ultra light Gospade clone.
Wholesale 36V 250W engine kit brushless electric bicycle motor with battery Electric bike mid drive motor kits|Tool Parts| - AliExpress

2.64kg?!!? - Has anyone on these forums tried one of these? Are spares as easy to buy, as for the Bafang BBSXXs?

 

[Nealh]

Depends on the riding but I have used a both a bbs01 and hub for off road riding. The hub I find more reliable then a kit mid drive.
Not yet had a hub fail me or a controller to the point where I can't continue, I have had two GSM failed on long rides and two BBS controllers.

 

[Nealh]

The Gospade is a clone to a degree of the BBS, the engineers are ex bafang employees. However the motor is light so may be a bit flaky like the tsdz2, they aren't widely available in the west so reliability unknown.
Woosh once thought about stocking them but never cam to anything as they preferred the tsdz2, a search on ES will come up with something but not very much.

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

Is that camera attached to a badger? It's speed looks familar...

 

[guerney]

The Gospade is a clone to a degree of the BBS, the engineers are ex bafang employees. However the motor is light so may be a bit flaky like the tsdz2, they aren't widely available in the west so reliability unknown.
Woosh once thought about stocking them but never cam to anything as they preferred the tsdz2, a search on ES will come up with something but not very much.

It's good to know that if ever Bafang stop making the BBSXX series, alternatives to try exist... and are likely to increase in number as a result. There are two people at least, who reported a sudden shutdown problem with Gospades, their Gospades won't go:

Gospade problems

I bought a used ebike with a Gospade conversion kit. Mid-drive. Bike works great except that every 10 minutes or so the power shuts off and I have to restart it by pressing the power button. This happens regardless of how much power I am drawing or how much battery is charged. Can anybody...

electricbikereview.com

Gospade reliability?

Hi, I finally got my bike converted with a gospade motor and its great but it keeps turning itself off at random and inconvenient moments. Not only that, but it is getting more and more frequent. I just had a horrible walk/ride home from the hairdressers. Thank goodness I wasn't further from...

endless-sphere.com

Gospade thread on this forum:

Lightweight mid-drive kit for short commute

I'm very new to this, still studying. I took a ride on one of the new Uber Jump bikes on Saturday and couldn't stop grinning. It confirmed my idea of converting my hybrid, a Ridgeback Velocity. Gears are 21 speed Shamano Altus, brakes are v-brakes. It seems to me that I'd be well-suited to a...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

 

[Andy-Mat]

Hello,
I was a full time cyclist up until 2 years ago when i was diagnosed suddenly with Menieres Disease. Subsequently my fitness level dropped, confidence went and im left with 50% deafness, tinnitus & fatigue.

I also suffer with Tinnitus, age related I am told, which makes it difficult to fall asleep I found. Till I started sleeping alone and putting on an all night radio station, although any music that I like, turned down low, allows me to not "hear" the Tinnitus anymore and I sleep like a baby!

My questions are. What would you recommend buying either a hub motor of Mid drive?

If your yearly mileage is low, technically speaking either system would probably work, except that all mid motor drives, that use the chain to transmit motor power to the rear wheel, suffer certain problems. I call it "the Mid Motor Single Point of failure", much to the annoyance of certain Pedelecers here!

Due to the following facts that hub motors do not suffer from:-

1) Generally speaking, mid motors are much higher priced, and with some makes, no replacement parts will be sold to either private persons and non registered LBS's. You must pay almost what my bike costed new, for a repaired replacement motor, AND PAY them to do the work, as you are not allowed to do that work!!!

2)Some of these mid motor bikes have CANBUS systems, that "lock out" an owner from doing anything "serious" on his own bikes. Prevent him buy and using batteries from another identical bike!!

3) The mid motors are generally more complicated, and may have gears made of plastic inside them, that are not a spare part, that can wear or break anytime they see fit. Heavier riders are therefore punished with more wear generally speaking.

4) The chain and its gears has to transmit ALL motor torque, and ALL rider torque. Whereas a hub motor chain tranmits NO motor torque at all via the chain, as its directly to the wheel, and only the reduced torque (motor assistance) of the riders pedal power, actually passes through the chain.

5) On a mid motor bike, if the chain, or any of the various cogs ascociated with the drive system breaks, you have to push/carry your bike home.
On a hub bike, usually you just remove the broken chain (it can happen but rarely!), get on and either "Ghost" pedal to get the PAS working, or use the throttle if you have one, and as long as power is available from the battery, you ride home electrically. On a wet and windy night drive, that is HEAVEN!!

Please note that here on Pedelec there is almost a civil war on some days between the "Mids and the Hubs!"

The hub motor would need to fit an 8 speed cassette, not freewheel

On Hub motors, at least all the ones I have seen, most use Shimao or similar, and often have 21 gears in all.....Some prefer front hubs, as then puncture repair on the rear wheel is made far more simple. I buy tyres and tubes that are armoured, plus I use an old tread, cut from an old tyre, placed beween the innertube and the outside tread. Since I learned that, no more punctures!

Having read through lots of posts with what people recommend it has left me confused as to what i want. My budget would not be the best unless i sold one of my other bikes but i dont really want to, for now, in case i ever get to use them properly again.

You are not the first or last to be confused, many here have suffered the same problems. I was just lucky, as being a pensioner, price directed my attention to the bikes I have owned, and luck was on my side, that the cheaper standard ones do not suffer expensive repairs, and the parts are easily available at low prices......
Which is why I bought a cheap Chinese standard e-bike about 5 years (after 8 years on a great 2nd hand , but unsophisticated, Supermarket e-bik) ago, other than Disk pads, Tyres and tubes, it has worked well for me, and it came with all extras except GPS, and with transport and import duties, plus a second battery, I paid far less than £ 1,000 (£930 if I remember correctly.
Furthermore, as it is all fairly standard Chinese made parts, which can be easily found for very little money on ebay, or direct from the importer in Sweden (in my case), at slightly higher prices, but fast delivery. Plus it folds in the middle for exceptionaly easy battery replacent or bike stowage!, you cannot go wrong with a hub!
If a bike you are looking at costs say £ 2,000 new (some cost that 2 nd hand!) and you buy instead a bike like/similar to mine for £ 1,000 or less, you can basically put another £1,000 in a savings account to pay for any repairs that may be needed, or even buy a second bike just for spare parts! Whatever.....
Best wishes
regards
Andy

 

[Nealh]

I suspect like the GSM shutting down is due to heat issues and thermal cut out, the tsdz2 at least has it's many fans as a TS system and remedies are at hand to overcome these issues.

 

[ben619]

I also suffer with Tinnitus, age related I am told, which makes it difficult to fall asleep I found. Till I started sleeping alone and putting on an all night radio station, although any music that I like, turned down low, allows me to not "hear" the Tinnitus anymore and I sleep like a baby!

If your yearly mileage is low, technically speaking either system would probably work, except that all mid motor drives, that use the chain to transmit motor power to the rear wheel, suffer certain problems. I call it "the Mid Motor Single Point of failure", much to the annoyance of certain Pedelecers here!

Due to the following facts that hub motors do not suffer from:-

1) Generally speaking, mid motors are much higher priced, and with some makes, no replacement parts will be sold to either private persons and non registered LBS's. You must pay almost what my bike costed new, for a repaired replacement motor, AND PAY them to do the work, as you are not allowed to do that work!!!

2)Some of these mid motor bikes have CANBUS systems, that "lock out" an owner from doing anything "serious" on his own bikes. Prevent him buy and using batteries from another identical bike!!

3) The mid motors are generally more complicated, and may have gears made of plastic inside them, that are not a spare part, that can wear or break anytime they see fit. Heavier riders are therefore punished with more wear generally speaking.

4) The chain and its gears has to transmit ALL motor torque, and ALL rider torque. Whereas a hub motor chain tranmits NO motor torque at all via the chain, as its directly to the wheel, and only the reduced torque (motor assistance) of the riders pedal power, actually passes through the chain.

5) On a mid motor bike, if the chain, or any of the various cogs ascociated with the drive system breaks, you have to push/carry your bike home.
On a hub bike, usually you just remove the broken chain (it can happen but rarely!), get on and either "Ghost" pedal to get the PAS working, or use the throttle if you have one, and as long as power is available from the battery, you ride home electrically. On a wet and windy night drive, that is HEAVEN!!

Please note that here on Pedelec there is almost a civil war on some days between the "Mids and the Hubs!"


On Hub motors, at least all the ones I have seen, most use Shimao or similar, and often have 21 gears in all.....Some prefer front hubs, as then puncture repair on the rear wheel is made far more simple. I buy tyres and tubes that are armoured, plus I use an old tread, cut from an old tyre, placed beween the innertube and the outside tread. Since I learned that, no more punctures!

You are not the first or last to be confused, many here have suffered the same problems. I was just lucky, as being a pensioner, price directed my attention to the bikes I have owned, and luck was on my side, that the cheaper standard ones do not suffer expensive repairs, and the parts are easily available at low prices......
Which is why I bought a cheap Chinese standard e-bike about 5 years (after 8 years on a great 2nd hand , but unsophisticated, Supermarket e-bik) ago, other than Disk pads, Tyres and tubes, it has worked well for me, and it came with all extras except GPS, and with transport and import duties, plus a second battery, I paid far less than £ 1,000 (£930 if I remember correctly.
Furthermore, as it is all fairly standard Chinese made parts, which can be easily found for very little money on ebay, or direct from the importer in Sweden (in my case), at slightly higher prices, but fast delivery. Plus it folds in the middle for exceptionaly easy battery replacent or bike stowage!, you cannot go wrong with a hub!
If a bike you are looking at costs say £ 2,000 new (some cost that 2 nd hand!) and you buy instead a bike like/similar to mine for £ 1,000 or less, you can basically put another £1,000 in a savings account to pay for any repairs that may be needed, or even buy a second bike just for spare parts! Whatever.....
Best wishes
regards
Andy

Thank you for your very detailed reply!

I am thinking of going down the route of hub purely for reliability! As others have said on the thread also. I would if there is any downfall to the front hub instead of the rear? didn't consider a front one until you just mentioned it.......

Regarding the tinnitus; I find white noise helps when im at my whits end! But agree with radio normally too!

 

[Nealh]

Front hubs deserve a nice steel fork over an ali one, with steel no need for torque arms but with ali, torque arms are a must to prevent face plants.

 

[ben619]

Front hubs deserve a nice steel fork over an ali one, with steel no need for torque arms but with ali, torque arms are a must to prevent face plants.

Thanks Neal, Would a rear wheel hub require torque arms too? rated at 250w?

 

[Nealh]

Most definitely in ali drop outs, though one is plenty for 250w on the non drive side.
It is just to prevent hub axle rotation within the d/o and twisting/sanpping the motor cable, preventing hall sensor damage in the motor and mosfet failure in the controller should the motor wire short out.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Thank you for your very detailed reply!

I am thinking of going down the route of hub purely for reliability! As others have said on the thread also. I would if there is any downfall to the front hub instead of the rear? didn't consider a front one until you just mentioned it.......

Regarding the tinnitus; I find white noise helps when im at my whits end! But agree with radio normally too!

I must admit I'm a huge hub motor fan and think they are by far the best for general cycling especially some distances but I have a nice retro Saracen downhill mountain bike and it has to be mid-drive I feel to maximise the enjoyment off-road so I'm holding out until I can get a mid-drive motor for it. I won't be using it for a huge amount of rides and miles so weighing up performance vs value on this occasion I will go performance.

Where I take it there is likely to be some very steep bits on occasion and balance and stability are important.

Don't get me wrong though hub drive is still a good option for light off-road use but it just won't be competitive with a good mid-drive motor.

The other thing is mid-drive is far more demanding on the frame, if its an older likely fatigued frame then perhaps a hub motor would be a better option.

Don't consider putting a direct drive hub on the front they are just too heavy for a mountain bike used off-road. I would definitely go with a light geared hub motor for that if you choose to go that way.

Whatever you go for it will be great fun I'm sure I don't think there are any wrong answers but I would say mid-drive is ideal for this application.

 

[ben619]

Going to start looking for reputable companies now, I know lots of people use AliExpress but the 50+ day delivery time makes me sad so will look a little closer to home, also its bloody hard to search through that website my god!

I think the rear Hub motor will be the one to try my first build - purely to keep the costs down for now at least (until i change my mind in an hour or so again!)

I keep seeing another brand pop up called voilamart? Are they reputable as Bafang?

 

[Nealh]

Voilamart = fairly cheap which = crap control systems. The hubs are either weak 250w ones or 1kw nasties that need high current and a good £400 -500 battery.

Never yet had a 50+ day wait for AliExp delivery most stuff is 14 - 21 days.

 

[Nealh]

Before buying anything clearly set out your goals for the bike.
Riding terrain, speed, voltage, the first two will decide on the motor winding one will need to deliver the performance expected. No use living or riding in hill terrain expecting fast speeds and also buying an incorrectly wound motor (rpm wise).

 

[Andy-Mat]

Thank you for your very detailed reply!

No problem, thats why we belong to Pedelec, to help others . One of those ways is to call the pot black, even if some take offence at the truth being aired.....
My Mother always said "Tell the truth and shame the Devil!"

I am thinking of going down the route of hub purely for reliability! As others have said on the thread also. I would if there is any downfall to the front hub instead of the rear? didn't consider a front one until you just mentioned it.......

I have heard that very steep hill climbing with front hubs can be a problem, from others here on Pedelec. I have no knowledge either way myself, but it certainly sounds possible due to the weight moving back. If you have no steep climbs, it could be for you!
Hubs are cheaper to puchase, have fewer mechanical losses, they do not stress the chain and its components, and they generally allow Shimano gear changes. I have had two e-bikes with rear hubs and 21 gear Shimano derraileur, neither motor gave any problems, so I do not have a clue as to what the insides look like, they just ran and ran!
After 7 years on the first one, I had to change the rear cassette and chain as the chain occasionally slipped off! I did a lot of Kilometer every year too!

Regarding the tinnitus; I find white noise helps when im at my whits end! But agree with radio normally too!

You are the only other person I have ever discussed this "fix" with, and it's fascinating that you have had the same idea and success too!

Regards
Andy