Finally bought a smaller folder for conversion...

Hi all!

 

FINALLY after months and months of searching I've purchased another bike for doing my second conversion... I've been looking for something lighter and smaller to replace my 26" folder as I have a bad knee can't carry it up and down stairs any more.

 

Anyway I need a bit of advice as I'm wondering if I've made a terrible move with this purchase..or possibly a very good one!

 

The bike is a Mezzo D9 (2nd hand, 18 months old - not used much so very tidy and cost me £250).

 

The Mezzo has 16" wheels and I'm not sure about this. I know Jerry and others have done 16" conversions...but I can't find any posts about the Mezzo specifically or anyone who has successfully converted one here.

 

I'm also a bit nervous about going from 26" to 16"...I'm a speed freak heh. I had planned to get a 20" bike and was aiming to get a Dahon JetStream 2nd hand but they keep going for silly prices out of my budget.

 

However I've read several reviews on the Mezzo D9 and it looks quite a decent bike with good gearing and cadence similar to normal road bikes, despite the 16" wheels.. it's also said to compare favourably against Bromptons with a similar compact folded size and it weighs only 11.7kg so ideal for taking on trains..an added bonus.

 

So, down to business...conversion options:

 

1) Rear wheel conversion and possibly downgrading the gears, or removing the gears completely and and leaving it highly geared in single gear (don't plan to ride unpowered).

 

2) Front wheel conversion and replacing the 9-speed gears with a neater 3-speed or 5-speed hub gear.

 

I think a rear wheel conversion is my preferred option and makes more sense because I want the motor to look inconspicuous, and also the rear track on the Mezzo means it makes more sense to mount everything there above the motor.

 

This bike has an unusual folding mechanism similar to the Brompton where both wheels fold in rather than a hinged frame.

 

I'd like to fit big apple tyres to make up for lack of suspension..do they come in 16"? If not, does anyone have any suggestions or ideas? I'd want puncture resistant tyres.

 

I'd welcome any advice or words of caution on this one! Particularly any recommendations for the motor and powering. I have a 36v battery I'd like to use, but if necessary I'll buy a lower voltage one.

 

As to the bike itself.. I haven't taken delivery yet so haven't been able to ride it unpowered to try it out..I'm taking a gamble with it but I figured at this price I can easily sell it on if it's not suitable as they're like £700+ new!

 

I wasn't sure about the weird appearance (particularly the bizarre handlebar) but on reading about the clever folding mechanism and rigid frame I understand the design better and maybe it will grow on me ;-)

 

As I said, I don't plan to ride the bike unpowered...it's main use will be for taking packages to the sorting office (the generous sized rear rack and a Mezzo tall bag available will be a bonus there)...it also will get light recreational use.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/l9YT7.jpg?7317

 

http://i.imgur.com/yyUmm.jpg?1?2948

 

http://i.imgur.com/1DHFV.jpg?1?1832

Edited October 13, 201213 yr by morphix

Here you go

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B000UJ5QAU/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?creative=22206&creativeASIN=B000UJ5QAU&linkCode=asn&ref_=asc_df_B000UJ5QAU10097582&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&tag=googlecouk06-21

 

 

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Here you go

 

Schwalbe Big Apple 16 X 2.00 Wired Tyre with Kevlar Guard Reflex 370g (50-305) - Black:Amazon:Sports & Outdoors

 

 

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Sold! Cheers Dave :-)

There's a nice battery for folding bikes in the link below. Relatively high discharge, light and it unclips for folding so that you only have its dock left on frame , and lots of options for placement. The 328 rpm Q100 (or whatever GBK call it) should be good for about 16mph. If you want faster, you'll need a higher voltage battery.

36V9AH panasonic lithium ion battery for e-bikes-GreenBikeKit online store for electric bicycle components-GreenBikeKit.com

I'm used to 21-23mph on my 26" folder.. I need at least 20mph, mission impossible with 16" wheels?. But that's good news smaller motors can take higher voltage..I guess I won't need to buy a new battery then and can use my existing 36V 10Ah to save some cash.

Another possibility is the 350w brushed motor kit from GNGebike. I think the 450w brushless one would be too big and heavy, but the 350w one is much smaller and probably won't interfere with folding. I haven' tried one, so I don't know what they're like, but I can imagine not as robust as a hub motor and a bit noisier. On the plus side, it'scheap, easier to install, has excellent climbing power, and wil provide its maxmum power at whatever speed so that if you're already pedalling at 15mph, you get 350w added to that - the same at 20mph. No hub-motored or other ready-made bike can do that (apart from exotica). If you order one, pay the second level shipping price, which is only slightly more than the minimum and it'll arrive in less than a week.

 

I think Old_Dave ordered one, but I haven't head anything since.

Web Store

Thanks that's something to consider!

Lol...

 

Forgot to post that it arrived ok (apart from a little drop of customs charges), fitting was a breeze (very minor tweeks only)

 

Not run it yet as I'm still waiting on a thumb throttle from greenbikekit and I have a smaller top box for the batteries on the way cos my tape measure lied about the gap between the seat and the rack... Ho hum

 

 

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Here you go

 

Schwalbe Big Apple 16 X 2.00 Wired Tyre with Kevlar Guard Reflex 370g (50-305) - Black:Amazon:Sports & Outdoors

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Before you order these make sure you check the wheel size. I think the Mezzo may use the larger 349, same as the Brompton. Unfortunately the Big Apple is not available in this size at present. Clearances would need checking as well.

P.S not to sure about it fitting on such a small frame with 16" wheels though, I will have a measure tomorrow and let you know how far the motor drops below and behind the BB centre point

 

 

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Sorry for the delay, but here are the pictures of the important measurements from the BB centre..

 

The kit is http://www.gngebike.com/350wbrushed.htm

Edited October 14, 201213 yr by Old_Dave

Sorry for the delay, but here are the pictures of the important measurements from the BB centre..

 

The kit is mid mounted 350W

 

Thanks Dave, I think I'd like to go with a rear hub though. I want the bike to look as non-electric as possible. Jerry tells me a front hub is out of the question on this bike as the front wheel releases from the dropouts for folding. The rear wheel also swings around to fold, but I don't think it will cause any problem?

Edited October 14, 201213 yr by morphix

Good thinking, but with such a small rear wheel even with a higher rpm hub the top speed will be limited.... which maybe a good thing

Good thinking, but with such a small rear wheel even with a higher rpm hub the top speed will be limited.... which maybe a good thing

 

How limited do you think it will be, assuming at 328 RPM? On the one hand it will be good maybe as it will encourage me not to be lazy and pedal more...but on the other, it's nice to have the option to go fast, particularly as I'm always in a rush to get to the sorting office

Sorry for the delay, but here are the pictures of the important measurements from the BB centre..

 

The kit is mid mounted 350W

 

Actually looking at the original link you posted here it doesn't look so bad on the final finished product, especially the one in black which would blend in with my bike which is also black.. would this mid drive approach be faster than a hub motor then? I imagine you would need to be very highly geared to avoid freewheeling? Also how much skill would be needed to fit one of these mid drive kits? Is it something I could do myself with regular tools or would I need specialist stuff? I did my own conversion before but it was a simple front hub wheel replacement.

Faster yes cos the bikes gears are used, the crank and also the motor have freewheels built in, basic hand tools are all thats required apart from the bike tools for extracting the cranks and the BB, bit of electrical skill in connecting wires up, skill level requires a modicum of common sense mix them all together and bobs your uncle.

Faster yes cos the bikes gears are used, the crank and also the motor have freewheels built in, basic hand tools are all thats required apart from the bike tools for extracting the cranks and the BB, bit of electrical skill in connecting wires up, skill level requires a modicum of common sense mix them all together and bobs your uncle.

 

I reckon I can do it then, I used to be an electronic technician a long time ago and still dabble a bit, but I'm not so hot at mechanical/engineering side of things. :o

That's sorted then, lol

 

 

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My bike will be arriving tomorrow or Thursday (hopefully in one piece as Parcel Farce are carrying it..cringe!) so if I have time I will post some pics and will do a test ride video, all being well.

 

Having decided on rear hub I've been looking at motor options on GBK and BMS...

 

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of GBK-100R (Q100) or GBK-85 (Q85) motors supplied by GBK and BMS? These weigh 1.9kg and 2.1kg and look more powerful than the smaller tongxin motors, they are rated at 250-350W with 328 RPM option for 16" rim. Should stand up to over-volting I think. The Q85 at 1.9kg might be a good middle of the road compromise between a full-size 3kg+ motor and a smaller tongxin perhaps, however I don't think the Q85 is available in a rear wheel version oddly. Can't see one listed on either BMS or GBK.

 

I'm also interested to know how they perform compared to Bafang/8-Fun and whether it's worth taking on an extra kg of motor weight as these motors generally weigh 3kg and over.

 

On this build I'm looking at keeping the weight as low as possible (I'm trying to beat Jerry's < 17kg Brompton build )...so ideally I want a motor < 2kg)...I'd like something small and discrete (black would be nice) but which is not too under-powered. I'd like to do 15mph on the flat without pedalling and around 20mph with light pedalling.. I'm only light at 9.2 stone, reasonably fit and my bike weighs 11kg (probably a kg less if I decide to remove the gears).

 

I would consider a 200W tongxin, or something small as a try-out if someone can recommend a supplier and if they're not too expensive..I guess I could always sell it on if it's not up to the job..

Edited October 16, 201213 yr by morphix

(I'm trying to beat Jerry's < 17kg Brompton build )

 

Fighting talk

 

Brompton Ti with 1.6kg Goldant front hub motor, 13.5kg "bike carry weight" and about 2kg bag weight including battery and controller in the other hand

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7099/7321993318_8b1fc513ff_b.jpg

 

I fear you may be searching for the Holy Grail in that you want light and quite a bit of power. I think Tongxin use to do Nano rear motors though it seems no longer do. You would need to email them.

 

Gearless_Motor-OutRider Eshop - EBike Kit Supplier-Complete Electric Bike Conversion System

 

You might want to check the rear fork spacing too.

 

Regards

 

Jerry

Edited October 16, 201213 yr by jerrysimon

Fighting talk

 

Brompton Ti with 1.6kg Goldant front hub motor, 13.5kg "bike carry weight" and about 2kg bag weight including battery and controller in the other hand

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7099/7321993318_8b1fc513ff_b.jpg

 

I fear you may be searching for the Holy Grail in that you want light and quite a bit of power. I think Tongxin use to do Nano rear motors though it seems no longer do. You would need to email them.

 

Gearless_Motor-OutRider Eshop - EBike Kit Supplier-Complete Electric Bike Conversion System

 

You might want to check the rear fork spacing too.

 

Regards

 

Jerry

 

Thanks Jerry I've been reading your first Brompton conversion thread with interest over the last few days and taking notes..all the related questions and answers has been very helpful as I have the same questions and face the same decisions..

 

I guess with small wheel bikes it's always a compromise if you want to maintain the fold and low carry weight.. the trick is finding the right balance. You seem to be happy with lower power and putting in more effort (at times) than you would on a larger bike.. I'm coming round to your way of thinking, and thinking that maybe, that's the whole point of a 16" bike..i.e. not to create an electric bike that moves like a full size bike, but rather to provide subtle assistance without compromising the bikes purpose. If you need more power, keep a second (larger/heavier) bike. I will keep my first bike I think or maybe build a 20" with a bigger motor to replace it next.

 

I want the Mezzo to be light enough to carry up and down stairs without straining my knee daily, and small enough to take on trains/planes should the need arise...

 

Sooo....can I get my build to < 17kg.. I think so! My 26" was only just over 20kg.

 

The Mezzo is 11kg add to that 1.9kg for the motor (assuming I can get Q85R)..2.3kg for my 36v 10Ah battery and another kg for the controller and other bits...16.2kg! If I remove the gears and keep it single or dual gear..that will shave maybe a kg off bringing it down to 15.2kg... that doesn't include the weight of the bag of course..I'm planning to buy the Mezzo Commuter bag which is purpose designed to slide on the rack and keep all the kit in there..it's weather proof has carry handles and a shoulder strap so that is ideal (although expensive at £60, but then you only buy it once!). I will take a similar approach to yours with a umbilical cord and waterproof socket on the rear.

 

I want to keep the handlebar free of any kit and keep it minimal..no speedo/LCD console or LED indicator, no switches.. I will use the Speedict Android app with my HTC mounted to control the speed.

 

Well this is still all theory! Since nobody has ever converted one of these yet we don't even know if it's even possible. I'm a bit worried about the aluminium rear drop outs..but after reading a post on this subject on Endless Sphere I'm feeling a bit more confident it won't cause any problems.. do you think it would be wise consider some reinforcement for the torque still?

Edited October 16, 201213 yr by morphix

Having decided on rear hub I've been looking at motor options on GBK and BMS...

 

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of GBK-100R (Q100) or GBK-85 (Q85) motors supplied by GBK and BMS? These weigh 1.9kg and 2.1kg and look more powerful than the smaller tongxin motors, they are rated at 250-350W with 328 RPM option for 16" rim. ..

 

I use one in my Dahon and it's a perfect match. Mines actually a 24v 201 rpm one, which equates to 301 rpm at 36v. It's smooth, quiet and free-running. Top speed is about 18 to 20mph at 36v, so in 16" wheels speed would be 15 to 16mph, but climbing would be good. The 328rpm 36v should have 10% higher speed. I measured the no-load speed of a 328rpm one in a 26" wheel at about 30mph with 36v, which would be 18mph in a 16" wheel, so it looks like 15-16mph would be real world speed.

 

With 12S lipos and 30% of the shunt soldered, my Dahon flies - able to sustain over 20mph even up slight hills with my 100kg on board. With your weight, you'll be maxing out everywhere and flying up the hills. Lipos are lighter than other batteries, which is also an advantage. I've never used a Tongxin, but from what I've heard, they can't give the power of the Q100 because the rollers slip.

 

As Jerry said, you need to check the rear drop-out width. I think my Dahon was 120mm, so it took fair amount of levering to get the motor in. You can reduce the width of the Q100 a bit by using a 6 speed free-wheel and reducing the length of the spacer.

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/d8veh/Dahon/SANY0171.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/d8veh/Dahon/SANY0169.jpg

Thanks d8veh, that's been really helpful! I think I'm decided on the Q100 then assuming the Q85 isn't available in rear version.. it's strange that, have you ever seen one? It's only 200g weight difference anyway and the Q100 is presumably more powerful yet no more expensive so it's a worthwhile trade-off. If the Q85 is available in rear version I'd like to compare to Q100 in terms of energy efficiency and performance.

 

I'm tempted by the Tongxin/nano for it's ultra-low weight (1.6kg?) and the aesthetic value of a tiny motor..but I think with this build I have the capacity to take the Q100 and still have a sub-17kg bike...so for the extra performance it's worth it.

 

12S lipos sounds intriguing..but aren't those the batteries that require a fair bit of safety know-how and special handling? I'm wondering if it's worth moving to 48V? But that would mean extra battery weight so perhaps 36V is the best of all worlds..

Someone else raised the question about electrifying Mezzo D9 and Cwah says the rear dropout width on Mezzo D9 is 135mm...so looks good for Q100? It means dropping to 6 or 7 gears though, no problem. Cwah recommended the Cute 100 motor..I wonder if that is the same motor as the Q100?

Edited October 16, 201213 yr by morphix

The Mezzo is 11kg add to that 1.9kg for the motor (assuming I can get Q85R)..2.3kg for my 36v 10Ah battery and another kg for the controller and other bits...16.2kg! If I remove the gears and keep it single or dual gear..that will shave maybe a kg off bringing it down to 15.2kg...

 

Hmm.. i didn't factor in switching to big apple tyres and putting a more comfortable saddle on ;-) Maybe losing the gears and adding another 2kg for the bike mods would take me to around 17.5kg total weight with Q100... and 15.1kg carry weight..minus the bag...bit heavier than I would like, but this bike at 11kg is not the lightest folder by a long shot... I could have got the Dahon Uno at 9kg but it's considerably more £££ than what I got the Mezzo for...and the Mezzo has the rack and smaller folding size...always trade-offs..unless you love Brompton ;-)

 

If I don't like the Mezzo I think I will just get a Dahon Uno and be done with it. I could always fit a light rack on it. I'm still on the lookout for a Dahon JetStream that's within my price range, as a faster bike for more comfortable longer journeys to replace my 26".

Edited October 16, 201213 yr by morphix