eMezzo conversion continuation

Hi all,

I've resumed work on my eMezzo conversion and decided to resurrect my original old thread with a new one, for those interested.

Current Status:

I have the eMezzo converted with a Q100 motor and KU63 controller, running on throttle only. It runs VERY fast.

Work still to finish:

1. Gears are shagged. Shift is broken, and needs replacing.

2. Wiring is very messy and needs a single connector.

3. PAS sensor needs fitting.

4. Brake cut-out sensor needs fitting.

5. Speedict needs fitting.

Additionally, I'm going to have a go at building a second (backup) LipPo battery pack to compliment my 2-year old 36V 10Ah Lithium-Ion.

I'm hoping to get as much as this done as possible over the next 2 weeks, and will post updates (with pics/vids) here for those interested. I do have some vids of the conversion process for those interested I could edit and post up.

It proved somewhat tricky fitting a Q100 to the eMezzo. The rear drop-outs weren't quite wide enough and had to be stretched and the motor "forced" in place. In hindsight, I don't think this motor was a wise choice for the Mezzo. It's too heavy, too powerful, and possibly has compromised the fold neatness.

I will be replacing the motor, and the controller, if the fold is compromised and/or if the Speedict doesn't work with my HTC EVO 3D handset.

My primary objective with this conversion was lightness. Power and speed is an acceptable trade-off for that.

Paul

How can the 2.1kg cute 100 be too heavy?

At best you'll loose 0.9kg if you get the lightest goldant motor.

How can the 2.1kg cute 100 be too heavy?

 

At best you'll loose 0.9kg if you get the lightest goldant motor.

My understanding was, this motor was 2.9kg? I'll have to double check that, but I'm sure that's the figure which springs to mind (correct me if I'm wrong, maybe that's total wheel weight).

I know there are 1.6kg motors out there, and every 100g saving counts when you're lugging the bike up 3 flights of stairs daily with a compromised knee from surgery (which is likely to need regular, possibly annual surgery :S ).

The biggest weight-saving tactic though will be to make the battery and electronics easily removable from the bike, with just two connectors.

The Mezzo can't even be folded while the rear back is on the rack, so sorting that out is a must before any decision is taken on downgrading the motor. I've tried carrying the bike without the bag, and it's a lot easier, but I feel could be a bit lighter still with a smaller motor.

The thing is with the Q100, as much as I LOVE the awesome power it delivers and the incredible speed, it makes for a lazy e-biker and I don't feel inclined to pedal (in fact, I can't even keep up with the motor at full power at present, even in 7th gear!).

However, installing PAS and Speedict, or moving to an LCD console controller, may solve that problem and allow me to use less power and pedal more.

it's written 2.1kg on bmsbattery spec:

Q100 24V250W-350W Rear Driving EBike Hub Motor - BMSBATTERY

The lightest one is the keyde motor at 1.4kg with controller inside the motor:

http://www.keyde.com/?do=product&lang=en&event=view&ids=07

However, it'll assist you up to 12mph only on 16" wheel.

it's written 2.1kg on bmsbattery spec:

Q100 24V250W-350W Rear Driving EBike Hub Motor - BMSBATTERY

 

The lightest one is the keyde motor at 1.4kg with controller inside the motor:

http://www.keyde.com/?do=product&lang=en&event=view&ids=07

 

However, it'll assist you up to 12mph only on 16" wheel.

Thanks cwah, yeah 2.9kg must have been the total wheel weight I weighed then on my earlier thread.. I'm still undecided really... 12mph isn't great and I'm a speed freak! But I do need to exercise more and lay off the throttle.. so maybe improved wiring and removable rack bag with a new controller with LCD+PAS as d8veh suggested is the way to go and leave the Q100, if the bike still folds up reasonably ok.

However, it'll assist you up to 12mph only on 16" wheel.

With a Keyde Goldant motor in a 16" wheel I get around 14mph of assist on a 36V battery fully charged i.e. 41.5V. This equates to about 17mph on a 20" wheel. It does drop down to about 13mph as the battery discharges though. This is using third party controller for throttle as the stock controller is pedelec only. The stock controller seems to assist about another 1mph over and above this.

What I am beginning to realise about these smaller Goldant motors is that they really are "assist" only. You have to pedal to keep the speed up. This is great for me in the summer round Cambridge using it on my lightest Brompton when I want to go to pubs/coffee shops etc.

However I think in the middle of winter when its blowing a gale and raining I will be reverting back to my Brompton with the larger Tongxin motor in it.

Regards

Jerry

Edited September 3, 201312 yr by jerrysimon

With a Keyde Goldant motor in a 16" wheel I get around 14mph of assist on a 36V battery fully charged i.e. 41.5V. This equates to about 17mph on a 20" wheel. It does drop down to about 13mph as the battery discharges though. This is using third party controller for throttle as the stock controller is pedelec only. The stock controller seems to assist about another 1mph over and above this.

 

What I am beginning to realise about these smaller Goldant motors is that they really are "assist" only. You have to pedal to keep the speed up. This is great for me in the summer round Cambridge using it on my lightest Brompton when I want to go to pubs/coffee shops etc.

 

However I think in the middle of winter when its blowing a gale and raining I will be reverting back to my Brompton with the larger Tongxin motor in it.

 

Regards

 

Jerry

Hi Jerry,

Have you tried to compare nano motor, Q100 and SWXU?

I believe they have about the same weight.

Pat

No only used the Nano and Goldant. I have considered the Q100 but would only use the narrow 80mm wide one. If I get time I may have a play around with one. I am told it runs louder which would put me off.

However I suspect it would perform better/give me more grunt, but the Tongxin is more than adequate for my commute.

Regards

Jerry

Yes sorry I meant the Q75 CWAH. I would love to try one but have way too many other projects on the go at the moment.

Oops no I meant the Q85. This one

Q85 36V200W-250W Front Driving V-Brake Hub Motor - BMSBATTERY

Regards

Jerry

With a Keyde Goldant motor in a 16" wheel I get around 14mph of assist on a 36V battery fully charged i.e. 41.5V. This equates to about 17mph on a 20" wheel. It does drop down to about 13mph as the battery discharges though. This is using third party controller for throttle as the stock controller is pedelec only. The stock controller seems to assist about another 1mph over and above this.

 

What I am beginning to realise about these smaller Goldant motors is that they really are "assist" only. You have to pedal to keep the speed up. This is great for me in the summer round Cambridge using it on my lightest Brompton when I want to go to pubs/coffee shops etc.

 

However I think in the middle of winter when its blowing a gale and raining I will be reverting back to my Brompton with the larger Tongxin motor in it.

 

Regards

 

Jerry

Hello Jerry, long time no see, good to see you again! I welcome your insights as you have a lot of experience in the area I'm most interested in, and you have pretty much achieved what I'm trying to do with the eMezzo with your Brompton.

I think it's a case giving proper thought to intended use and purpose as you say, at the start of the build.. in hindsight, I think I would have been better with a Goldant motor or similar, and having a lower-power "pedal assist" bike.. But, like you say, it's nice to have the option of a faster bike too, for when you need to get from A to B very fast, especially in winter.

So I think two bikes are needed. A super-lightweight small motor ultra-portable "take anywhere" bike which is designed for exercising and assistance on hills...and a bigger motor/heavier bike, that's designed purely for speed and distance, with weight and carrying/folding traded off..

It would be NICE to have the best of both worlds in one bike, but it doesn't seem possible, does it? There's always a trade-off in terms of speed, weight, portability/folding etc.

I'm going to try fully folding my eMezzo today and film the result (that should be fun, as I haven't even mastered it without the motor fitted, it's somewhat complicated compared to a Brompton) with the Q100 motor to see if indeed the fold has been compromised, and then take a decision from there, as to whether to downgrade the motor. Carrying the eMezzo with a Q100 (without the bag/battery) is feasible, but not ideal.. I can manage the 3 flights of stairs a lot easier than I could with my 26" folder, but it's still a heavy weight and strain (especially when not fully folded which is the way I carry it at present).

Paul

Yes sorry I meant the Q75 CWAH. I would love to try one but have way too many other projects on the go at the moment.

 

Oops no I meant the Q85. This one

 

Q85 36V200W-250W Front Driving V-Brake Hub Motor - BMSBATTERY

 

Regards

 

Jerry

Many thanks. If it's available in a rear version, I'd certainly order one and give it a try. I'm limited to rear wheel drive on Mezzo as the front-wheel is a drop-out as part of the fold.

Second proper ride after first full battery charge

Yesterday I did second proper long-distance ride on my eMezzo (to the Sorting Office) after charging the battery fully for the first time since d8veh repaired it..

My god, what a difference. The bike is astonishingly fast. I haven't accurately measured it yet on my SatNav app but it feels like 20mph+.

The Q100 is so powerful that when starting from a standing start, the dainty front 16" wheel of my Mezzo came off the road briefly with a little wheelie due to the weight I was carrying on the rack

It's quite unwieldy at times the amount of power at full throttle on a bike this small. People just can't believe how fast I arrive in places! I'm still riding on throttle-only (and very naughtily still haven't fitted the brake cut-out sensor). But I'm not riding it a lot, until I do and being careful and only going "flat out" on buses only, quiet bus route lane.

So anyway, back to the ride... I mention the other day, the problem of the throttle stopping and starting and becoming unresponsive/motor constantly cutting out after a minute or so at full power. Well yesterday, none of that. The throttle was fully responsive, EVERY time, working normally. And the motor was not cutting out at all and kept going, until, the return leg of the journey.

That's when some weird stuff started occurring. The bike would judder as though there was some drag or stuttering (for want of a better term) in the power to motor.. I have no idea what's going on. The throttle was fine (I think), it was just the power and speed wasn't smooth like the outward leg of the journey. The problem seemed to get gradually worse as I get nearer to home, with the bike seeming to almost struggle even on the flat to maintain consistent power (although feeling like it was not running out of power or lacking, still very powerful/fast, but just juddering/speed coming on and off spurts). Very odd indeed.

It could be that the battery just is getting tired from age and being used on throttle-only (I can't pedal as I can't keep up with it). I suspect as suggested before though, the KU63 controller needs replacing and isn't up to the job with the Q100 motor. Or maybe just easing off the throttle, and fitting the PAS and doing some lower-speed pedal assistance will solve the problem... that's something I'm keen to try next....more tests needed... anyway stay tuned for further updates!

Edited September 6, 201312 yr by morphix

Hello Jerry, long time no see, good to see you again! I welcome your insights as you have a lot of experience in the area I'm most interested in, and you have pretty much achieved what I'm trying to do with the eMezzo with your Brompton.

 

I think it's a case giving proper thought to intended use and purpose as you say, at the start of the build.. in hindsight, I think I would have been better with a Goldant motor or similar, and having a lower-power "pedal assist" bike.. But, like you say, it's nice to have the option of a faster bike too, for when you need to get from A to B very fast, especially in winter.

 

So I think two bikes are needed. A super-lightweight small motor ultra-portable "take anywhere" bike which is designed for exercising and assistance on hills...and a bigger motor/heavier bike, that's designed purely for speed and distance, with weight and carrying/folding traded off..

 

It would be NICE to have the best of both worlds in one bike, but it doesn't seem possible, does it? There's always a trade-off in terms of speed, weight, portability/folding etc.

 

I'm going to try fully folding my eMezzo today and film the result (that should be fun, as I haven't even mastered it without the motor fitted, it's somewhat complicated compared to a Brompton) with the Q100 motor to see if indeed the fold has been compromised, and then take a decision from there, as to whether to downgrade the motor. Carrying the eMezzo with a Q100 (without the bag/battery) is feasible, but not ideal.. I can manage the 3 flights of stairs a lot easier than I could with my 26" folder, but it's still a heavy weight and strain (especially when not fully folded which is the way I carry it at present).

 

Paul[/quote

 

Hi Paul,

 

For front wheel motor it is possible to have one bike with two different power of motors

 

My brompton at the moment is on SWXB motor 3kg which is heavy but poweful.

 

Another wheel will be Q100 2kg which is less powerful but light weight.

 

Swapping between them is easy just unscrew the nuts and slot in.

 

Of course, both of them have waterproof connectors for easy connection.

 

Pat

Hello Jerry, long time no see, good to see you again! I welcome your insights as you have a lot of experience in the area I'm most interested in, and you have pretty much achieved what I'm trying to do with the eMezzo with your Brompton.

 

I think it's a case giving proper thought to intended use and purpose as you say, at the start of the build.. in hindsight, I think I would have been better with a Goldant motor or similar, and having a lower-power "pedal assist" bike.. But, like you say, it's nice to have the option of a faster bike too, for when you need to get from A to B very fast, especially in winter.

 

So I think two bikes are needed. A super-lightweight small motor ultra-portable "take anywhere" bike which is designed for exercising and assistance on hills...and a bigger motor/heavier bike, that's designed purely for speed and distance, with weight and carrying/folding traded off..

 

It would be NICE to have the best of both worlds in one bike, but it doesn't seem possible, does it? There's always a trade-off in terms of speed, weight, portability/folding etc.

 

I'm going to try fully folding my eMezzo today and film the result (that should be fun, as I haven't even mastered it without the motor fitted, it's somewhat complicated compared to a Brompton) with the Q100 motor to see if indeed the fold has been compromised, and then take a decision from there, as to whether to downgrade the motor. Carrying the eMezzo with a Q100 (without the bag/battery) is feasible, but not ideal.. I can manage the 3 flights of stairs a lot easier than I could with my 26" folder, but it's still a heavy weight and strain (especially when not fully folded which is the way I carry it at present).

 

Paul[/quote

 

Hi Paul,

 

For front wheel motor it is possible to have one bike with two different power of motors

 

My brompton at the moment is on SWXB motor 3kg which is heavy but poweful.

 

Another wheel will be Q100 2kg which is less powerful but light weight.

 

Swapping between them is easy just unscrew the nuts and slot in.

 

Of course, both of them have waterproof connectors for easy connection.

 

Pat

 

Good idea Pat, that is the best of both worlds. I wish had the front-wheel flexibility with the Mezzo (as I would also love to have hub gears and do away with a derailleur) but sadly, no possibility of either unless I substantially compromise the fold, as the Mezzo's front wheel swings out of the drop-outs on its axle with QR and folds under the bike, in order to fully fold it into an almost Brompton-sized carry package.

Edited September 6, 201312 yr by morphix

Yesterday I did second proper long-distance ride on my eMezzo (to the Sorting Office) after charging the battery fully for the first time since d8veh repaired it..

 

My god, what a difference. The bike is astonishingly fast. I haven't accurately measured it yet on my SatNav app but it feels like 20mph+.

 

The Q100 is so powerful that when starting from a standing start, the dainty front 16" wheel of my Mezzo came off the road briefly with a little wheelie due to the weight I was carrying on the rack

 

It's quite unwieldy at times the amount of power at full throttle on a bike this small. People just can't believe how fast I arrive in places! I'm still riding on throttle-only (and very naughtily still haven't fitted the brake cut-out sensor). But I'm not riding it a lot, until I do and being careful and only going "flat out" on buses only, quiet bus route lane.

 

So anyway, back to the ride... I mention the other day, the problem of the throttle stopping and starting and becoming unresponsive/motor constantly cutting out after a minute or so at full power. Well yesterday, none of that. The throttle was fully responsive, EVERY time, working normally. And the motor was not cutting out at all and kept going, until, the return leg of the journey.

 

That's when some weird stuff started occurring. The bike would judder as though there was some drag or stuttering (for want of a better term) in the power to motor.. I have no idea what's going on. The throttle was fine (I think), it was just the power and speed wasn't smooth like the outward leg of the journey. The problem seemed to get gradually worse as I get nearer to home, with the bike seeming to almost struggle even on the flat to maintain consistent power (although feeling like it was not running out of power or lacking, still very powerful/fast, but just juddering/speed coming on and off spurts). Very odd indeed.

 

It could be that the battery just is getting tired from age and being used on throttle-only (I can't pedal as I can't keep up with it). I suspect as suggested before though, the KU63 controller needs replacing and isn't up to the job with the Q100 motor. Or maybe just easing off the throttle, and fitting the PAS and doing some lower-speed pedal assistance will solve the problem... that's something I'm keen to try next....more tests needed... anyway stay tuned for further updates!

If you are planning to get a KU65 controller, it is worth to try sine wave controller with LCD as well.

It does not cost you much on top of that.

It is also worth getting spare throttle and PAS just in case. I have a half twist throttle from bmsbattery and it does not work at the beginning.

Pat

If you are planning to get a KU65 controller, it is worth to try sine wave controller with LCD as well.

It does not cost you much on top of that.

 

It is also worth getting spare throttle and PAS just in case. I have a half twist throttle from bmsbattery and it does not work at the beginning.

 

Pat

I'm definitely set on the sine wave controller with LCD.. as I really miss my old LCD console on my 26" folder...and I'm not very confident the Speedict I have will work on my HTC Android phone.. or even be suitable replacement for a simple LCD console..

Yeah I'll definitely stock up on throttles and what not again, I'm going to order a ton of stuff.. so if anyone wants anything, let me know.. I'll post an announcement before I order soon.

The juddering is most likely caused by a faulty phase wire connection, or even a hall wire. Try disconnecting the phase wires and crimp them a bit tighter before re-connecting. Also, check that the 10-pin connector is inserted right up to the line.

I checked those several times :-( but maybe they're being pulled somehow when riding, as my wiring set-up is very messy it has to be said, and there's a lot of stuff in the rack bag alongside the controller and wiring.. I've stopped though many times, and checked and double checked, and all the connections seem firm. The only way to be sure is doing a proper wiring job I think and to get rid of those horrible Chinese pins and messy wiring by doing a straight-forward single cable and socket and plug approach to the controller. I have my own little workshop and soldering iron, so it's something I can try. I had planned to put everything inside a small ABS box (with the Speedict) and hard wire everything with cables coming out or have a single connector on side for battery/PAS/throttle connector.

I did wonder if the connectors for the phase wires had become oxidised as I had that problem on my old bike and just giving them a light sand down, improved electrical conductivity.

Note: I don't know if you recall Dave, but I had that disaster early on in this build, where I suffered the rear inner blow-out and had to ride the bike 2 miles on the rim! It didn't do the rim any good, and who knows what it did to the motor/sensors? Maybe there was some damage eh? I tried to wheel it back but rode it partly too, as I was knackered and freezing and just wanted to get home..was in middle of winter and was middle of nowhere at night!

Edited September 6, 201312 yr by morphix

I'm definitely set on the sine wave controller with LCD.. as I really miss my old LCD console on my 26" folder...and I'm not very confident the Speedict I have will work on my HTC Android phone.. or even be suitable replacement for a simple LCD console..

 

Yeah I'll definitely stock up on throttles and what not again, I'm going to order a ton of stuff.. so if anyone wants anything, let me know.. I'll post an announcement before I order soon.

I probably do need to order another set of sine wave controller. Do let me know if you do start your order. thanks

Pat

I checked those several times :-( but maybe they're being pulled somehow when riding, as my wiring set-up is very messy it has to be said, and there's a lot of stuff in the rack bag alongside the controller and wiring.. I've stopped though many times, and checked and double checked, and all the connections seem firm. The only way to be sure is doing a proper wiring job I think and to get rid of those horrible Chinese pins and messy wiring by doing a straight-forward single cable and socket and plug approach to the controller. I have my own little workshop and soldering iron, so it's something I can try. I had planned to put everything inside a small ABS box (with the Speedict) and hard wire everything with cables coming out or have a single connector on side for battery/PAS/throttle connector.

 

I did wonder if the connectors for the phase wires had become oxidised as I had that problem on my old bike and just giving them a light sand down, improved electrical conductivity.

 

Note: I don't know if you recall Dave, but I had that disaster early on in this build, where I suffered the rear inner blow-out and had to ride the bike 2 miles on the rim! It didn't do the rim any good, and who knows what it did to the motor/sensors? Maybe there was some damage eh? I tried to wheel it back but rode it partly too, as I was knackered and freezing and just wanted to get home..was in middle of winter and was middle of nowhere at night!

As Dave suggested, the reliability of phase wire signal is related to how well the connection between the motor and controller. I had a problem with jerky movement of my motor and I thought the motor was damaged. When I checked the connection of the phase wire, I found out quite a lot of dirt at the phase wire connectors. After cleaning that up, it works fine.

Pat

Thanks Paul. One bike would never be enough for me, but if I had to only own one it would be the M2L-X. All through the summer I have been using this 11.5KG Brompton including the Goldant fitted. Its just fantastic to have such a light weight portable bike in the summer for popping into pubs on a sunny afternoon/evening and is way easier than driving into Cambridge or relying on buses at the end of a pub session

I am not sure but suspect in the winter I will revert back to my trusty original M3L with the original Tongxin I converted nearly four years ago.

I have just also completed a similar conversion on a Dahon Uno (upgraded to a Duo) with the Goldant motor. I will try and post some pics of this soon. This will of course spin faster in a 20" wheel so maybe that will also get more use over the Winter too. I have everything configured so I just use the same Brompton bag (even on the Dahon) and can quickly swap out controllers i.e. the Tongxin one is programmed for around 12A and the Goldant for 8.5A max. The new Goldants with the cable exiting the other side below the axle shaft make, it so much easier and avoid all the faf of the Brompton frame slip.

I am also playing around with the hidden wire brake cutout units Dave sent me so I can keep original brake levers. I hate the cheap nasty cut out brakes!

Regards

Jerry

Edited September 6, 201312 yr by jerrysimon

Jerry, I've seen on your signature you are now using Konion pack? As you are looking for the most lightweight setup, why don't you try these new Panasonic NCR18650PD or LG ICR18650D1 cells?

They are at 230wh/kg so 2 times lighter.

Paul, good to see you back working on the Mezzo again. Here are my thoughts.

Dont dismiss a front motor, its the qr that holds and locks the wheel in place in the forks, not the thin stays that used to swing the wheel out when folding. If you can get a motor with a qr then give it more consideration. I don't know much about electric bikes so there might be other reasons why you can not fit a front motor but give it some thought, it would be my first choice if I were doing a conversion.

If you are planning to build a new battery pack, would it be possible to build something that will fit on the underside of the rack, possibly either side of the rear wheel along with the controller? you could then use the bike with whichever bag you wanted and not have to carry them around with you in the bag.

Consider fitting in-line skate wheels to the rack in place of the tiny ones, rolling the bike folded makes a big difference, much easier than carrying it.