Electric Mountain Bikes: No one will buy one?!..

[Gubbins]

Is it me or are these answers just a bit evasive?

 

[JohnCade]

Is it me or are these answers just a bit evasive?

Yes. I think the point really is that which KTM stated above and which was being discussed many pages back before this member’s issue came up. It seems to me that the dealer does offer a warranty with the stuff he sells, and if he is not doing enough in this instance - and assuming the poster is not a rival dealer - then there is probably a reason for it.

But since the complainant will not go into detail we can make up our own minds as to whether it’s a genuine complaint or not. Meanwhile the main point as far as I can see is whether the dealer is doing e bikes harm by selling his dongles and whether he is being honest with his customers. He wouldn’t be the only one in the UK who misled buyers of S pedelecs.

 

[Gubbins]

Some quick points from me.

1) Col is my name, I post on here using it and its on all our KTM social media, so its not unusual for someone to use it. If they used Colin, I'd know who it was immediately, but my Mum doesn't use forums, so I think we're safe.

2) The warranty issue is really a moot point. Because in both cases being discussed here (actually all 3 if you count the bb issue thats been alluded to there is no issue. Second hand Haibikes don't have a warranty, so there is no reason why Martin should help anyone. If Martin isn't helping this customer Jresa, it could be for many reasons, but I'm sure the dongle isn't one of them.

Martin is clearly offering a warranty on the bikes he sells, so he has to honour them even if he puts a dongle on it - end of. The fact that bosch won't help him is not relevant to you guys who are end consumers. Unless he of course goes bust or closes and then you will be left high and dry unless Raleigh decide they too will go against Bosch and warranty bikes with a dongle.

3) My (our) and the industry concerns are that Martin is claiming to be promoting eBikes, when actually by selling bikes with dongles fitted he's not.

He's actually doing 2 things we have a problem with. Firstly by selling offroad bikes with dongles this is something that could cause the MTB side of eBikes to simply collapse in the UK, because we'll loose access rights everywhere. So this effects us, and lots of our customers who sell eMTBs and their customers who love riding their bikes at trail centres and parks everywhere.

Secondly, (and this doesn't have an impact on us really) he's selling bikes using an addition that most customers don't really understand the negative consequences of its use. This means he is benefiting from a non level playing field, this effects Haibike dealers more than ours but its a big problem. Because I know for a fact that if you phone his store you'll be told that Bosch bikes don't have enough speed normally, and the bikes are only really any good with a dongle. He pushes them on customers without really explaining the long list of reasons why they can cause you and the who community of cyclists problems.

So in short, yes I will be wandering over the Raleigh / Haibike to make a formal complaint at the NEC. I will then send an open letter to them, and having spoken to about 30 Haibike dealers over the past few weeks I don't think I'll be alone.

Col

With reference to point 1, I wouldn't dream of addressing you on here by your shortened Christian name unless I had some previous discourse eith you

 

[tillson]

The motor

Can someone block this clown? He is clearly a rival of Martin's and his question dodging should be all anyone needs to tell them this.

Can his IP address be obtained to see if it matches any others which have been used in the past? It would be nice if the true identity could be published, but that might hit the advertising revenue, so it won't happen.

Jresa had an offer from LEBC Tom to take a look at his bike yesterday at around 18:30 hrs, but still he continues to protest about it not working. I suspect he won't take up this offer because bike, fault and a customer of Martin's called Jresa don't exist.

I suggest that anyone thinking of buying from Martin should disregard anything that this fool Jresa has posted, contact Martin directly and judge him on his own merits.

I don't agree with fitting dongles, I don't agree with not disclosing the warranty issues associated with them and I don't like the fact that Martin hasn't come back to address the concerns of his customers. But in fairness I don't think he could respond to this prat Jresa if he wanted to, because we don't even know which model bike he's bought, exactly how much he paid and when. I also don't like fake forum members members which Jresa clearly is.

I have had one purchase from Martin, a slightly used Panasonic motor. All I can say is that he was very trusting of me, very fair with the description of the motor, very clear about there being no warranty and very fair on price. It all turned out well, I am pleased to say.

 

[flecc]

Well, if what you state is true, are you a moral person?

I only answered on the basis of the law. The moral position is a personal judgment issue, which I'm not involved with in this case. Also I have no idea whether the dealer involved warns or doesn't warn his customers, so any opinion of mine is irrelevant at present.
.

 

[dinger19]

Can someone block this clown? He is clearly a rival of Martin's and his question dodging should be all anyone needs to tell them this.

Can his IP address be obtained to see if it matches any others which have been used in the past?

I suggest that anyone thinking of buying from Martin should disregard anything that this fool Jresa has posted, contact Martin directly and judge him on his own merits.

I don't agree with fitting dongles, I don't agree with not disclosing the warranty issues associated with them and I don't like the fact that Martin hasn't come back to address the concerns of his customers. But in fairness I don't think he could respond to this prat Jresa if he wanted to, because we don't even know which model bike he's bought, exactly how much he paid and when. I also don't like fake forum members members which Jresa clearly is.

If you think Jresa needs to blocked then don't you think Martin should be blocked as he's doing more harm than good in the way he promotes his range of ebikes etc a disgruntled customer posts on here to say how he has been treated and you want him banned all because he/she has not satisfied you with the amount of information they've given

 

[tillson]

If you think Jresa needs to blocked then don't you think Martin should be blocked as he's doing more harm than good in the way he promotes his range of ebikes etc a disgruntled customer posts on here to say how he has been treated and you want him banned all because he/she has not satisfied you with the amount of information they've given

No, I want the person blocked because they are a clown making up a fictitious account of a fault with an Ebike.

No model, no date of purchase, no description of fault, no account of how he / she has tried to resolve it, no details of how long the fault has existed, no details of how long after purchase the fault developed, no statement that they are the original owner. Any legitimate complainant would be able to provide this. This joker can't because with that level of detail it would be easy to out him / her.

 

[dinger19]

No, I want the person blocked because they are a clown making up a fictitious account of a fault with an Ebike.

No model, no date of purchase, no description of fault, no account of how he / she has tried to resolve it, no details of how long the fault has existed, no details of how long after purchase the fault developed, no statement that they are the original owner. Any legitimate complainant would be able to provide this. This joker can't because with that level of detail it would be easy to out him / her.

Not a lot of difference then to Martin as he wont answer the questions being asked will he.?

 

[selrahc1992]

Not a lot of difference then to Martin as he wont answer the questions being asked will he.?

one thing that occurred to me is that by keeping up this very deliberate campaign you pretty much guarantee that anyone looking for a faster off-road ebike will know about martin and put him at the top of their list. there's a saying I believe about a show of envy being an insult to oneself, though I don't really imagine you or ktm col will understand what that means.

 

[HelenJ]

Just to say I am in conversation with Jresa this morning.

 

[Gubbins]

Not a lot of difference then to Martin as he wont answer the questions being asked will he.?

In his place I would not be hassled and bullied into performing for an audience. In a previous post I vented my frustration with a bike dealer and Martin contacted me privately, asked about the problem and provided a solution. He did ask me not to air this, but perhaps its necessary to provide a balanced view. I would expect that he is also conversing with his customers, just not on here. Apart from Jresa are there any other dissatisfied customers of his? Or even non customers who he has helped? In fact all of the dealers on here seem happy to help in one way or another.
And with regard to Jresa..
If I were he/she, and having joined this forum to try to educate the members, then receiving some derogatory and almost rude comments, I would have told you all to P*** off long since. I suspect this poster is enjoying this immensely.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

one thing that occurred to me is that by keeping up this very deliberate campaign you pretty much guarantee that anyone looking for a faster off-road ebike will know about martin and put him at the top of their list. there's a saying I believe about a show of envy being an insult to oneself, though I don't really imagine you or ktm col will understand what that means.

please please please don't mis-understand my complaints - this is not envy. I do not wish we had the attitude to ignore best practice and our morals and sell bikes with dongles. I admire what Martin has done with his business in many many ways (just not this one) and I've even been defending him about the warranty stuff consistently. He's applied to be a KTM dealer and had he not been so insistent on selling and promoting bikes that can't be used legally we'd probably be selling to him.

However what he is doing by promoting eBikes with dongles is damaging the potential for eMTB in this country and this upsets me personally and professionally.

Publicity for his actions will result in a few more sales in the short term I'm sure, I can totally see that - no such thing as bad publicity etc etc. Hopefully in the medium term we'll see sufficient pressure from all sides placed upon him to ensure the stopping of this underhand, short-termist business practice. Then everyone including him will therefore benefit in the long term, with a secure sustainable market.

 

[nemesis]

is it legal for a dealer to sell an S class bike or dongled bike and only use by the buyer is illegal when it is ridden away,if this is correct then does the dealer face any third party claims if there is an accident?,or has it never happened.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Seems to me a major storm in a tea cup.
I have a dongled haibike and has been so from almost new ( bad ass)

Don't think for one moment that this is Ferrari performance, just makes cycling at, say 18mph possible.
The motor power over about 18mph is not sufficient to give you that major assist over these sorts of speeds.

Any cycle.. ebike or otherwise, can... downhill do over 30mph and possibly if steep enough and the wind behind approaching 40 mph.

I cannot see why Manufacturers that offer unrestricted ebikes then state "modified ebikes" are eliminated from any warranties.

I don't particularly have a lot of Time for Martin@ebikes but feel sure he's meaning you really can't get up to that much with a dongled ebike to damage a motor.

Folks need to know dongled or not ie unrestricted or otherwise, ebikes are FANTASTIC bikes. It mostly means that instead of doing 10 miles off road on an solely pedal cycle, with an ebike you get to do 30 miles before your knackered.
That distance opens up so more options in respect of both distance and hills that would not otherwise be tackled.
Leicestershire Rocks...........get a decent OS Map and don't concern yourself with the minutiae or petty arguments here........Dingly Donglies do help.

Martinb......do you consider your Haibike,with the dongle fitted,as a motorbike?
KudosDave

 

[Gubbins]

Last Friday I had to go the the chemist and on a Friday afternoon the town is pretty much gridlocked. The round trip distance is 3 miles and its a good 1 hour march on foot, not much quicker by car or bus and on a bicycle its fraught with danger, but on my fully legal e-MTB I can get there and back in 15-20 minutes. Although my bike is legal some might say I am riding it illegally/ iresponsibly with regard to traffic law but if i have/cause an accident would anyone think or want to check its electronic parts to be sure its legal? Quite honestly how could they do that?
Video to make the point.. I am fully aware that this is the type of riding where an accident is likely but in the last 30 seconds or so I am following a car round a rat run and easily keeping pace with it which also lends weight to the is it a bike or a moped argument.. No dongle fitted.. Dont want one, dont need one, it goes fast enough as it is.

 

[jcubbin]

@Jebra as others have already stated on here, you give a pretty vague description of what the fault is. You need to take it to martin (at your own expense) and find out what the fault actually is. Electric fault is no proper description as it could be a motor, battery, headunit fault or a number of small electrical faults. If you take it to Martin to be looked at even if it is 100 miles away and book an allotted 1 hour slot with him then he would be able to do some technical fault finding on it. He would have a spare headunit, battery and should be able to pinpoint what the fault is. I can't see how he can be given so much grief if you haven't fully given him a chance to fix it for you.

@soundwave I've been reading your posts for quite a while and from what I can see you like to ride your bike hard and fast but looking back at your early posts

"jumps were maxing out the rear sus as was hitting the floor a lot harder cos of the weight but just managed to hold on to it as also builds up speed fast with the extra weight and killing the brake pads slowing it down"


"its like jumping a tank and landing like one"

and all the tinkering you've been doing with the rear rotors and loose cassette and not having the tools to do the job when you start them. I think most retailers would baulk at the thought of fixing your rear hub under warranty after what you do with the bike. I suspect that upping the size of the rotors and not having the right adapter and your admission that

"tried that adaptor both ways and other way wheel will not go round.
any one got any ideas cos not got a clue now"

would at least give the retailer to question your rights to warranty work given that you are running the bike out of its specified or warrantied parameters.

I'm not having a go it's just that you push your bike to the limits without any preventative maintenance and then wonder why things start failing. I myself have a KTM Lycan 27.5 GPS same as EddiePJ and it seems that the maintenance schedule for the rear suspension at least is 25 hours of use. The thought of having to get it done at 25 hours is sickening but if it needs to be done and keeps the bike working great then i'll have to have it done. The bike is fantastic, I've not done as many miles as I would like on it yet but did manage 41 mph downhill in the lake district and with the standard brake setup felt totally in control and was able to stop in seconds and don't feel the need for a dongle at the moment either.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The problem from a dealer's point of view is that selling S-class bikes or e-bikes fitted with dongles is it is an unfair trading advantage. My London dealer (LEBC of Hampton Wick) is midway between one dealer openly advertising and selling S-class bikes and another openly offering to fit dongles on Haibikes.
Both these dealers have been visited by trading standards who appear to have no powers to stop them,other than ensuring that their advertising makes the implications clear,the latter is pretty loosely abided to.
Who reading this posting could think that is a fair situation,but we have made the decision that we sell legal bikes for bridle way usage in the UK.
The suggestion that these Sclass/dongle bikes are ok for off road usage is a red herring,they can only be used on private land with the owners permission....forestry commission land would not apply....it is actually very difficult to find truly private land as I found from my old days as a rally car event organiser.
We did build an experimental 500 watt x 25 mph bike based upon our Kudos Tornado bike,actually a very well known forum contributor built it for us,he did a very good job,it pulls a 12 stone guy up 10 % hills on throttle alone,no pedalling. We built it to sell against the S class and dongled bikes,on the basis that trading standards advised that we could legally sell such a bike as long as we didn't promote its illegal usage in the UK. Therein lies the problem any customer who would wish to buy such a bike would want to test it.....how could we stand outside our premises watching a customer testing an illegal bike on the highway without effectively endorsing its use.
How the sellers of S class or dongle equipped bikes can stand watching them being tested without implicating themselves in the illegal usage. One of the joys of running an e-bike shop is watching a happy customer ride off on one of our bikes.....we would have to get the customer to sign a disclaimer stating he would only use the bike in an environment where it was legal to do so,also the practical problem of insisting that he collected the bike in a van and never riding the bike back to our shop for servicing. The practical problems of selling such an illegal machine convinced us not to proceed with the 500 watt project.
Someone on the forum listed out the offences committed by riding one of these motorbikes is quite extensive,including a possible 2 year jail term....it would probably only occur in the event of a serious road accident or if a bobby down on his numbers realised the offences being committed,but the manufacturer would use the illegality to walk away from the problem,leaving the customer to be supported by the dealer......how confident,in that event,would you have of the dealers support,it could make the loss of a £2k bike look like a minor problem.
KudosDave

 

[HelenJ]

For our own information, we asked Jresa to provide substantiation regarding the transaction which the poster says they have, but have decided not to provide to us, instead deciding to remove/edit posts where references to that transaction taking place have been made.

 

[Plasmadaddy]

For our own information, we asked Jresa to provide substantiation regarding the transaction which the poster says they have, but have decided not to provide to us, instead deciding to remove/edit posts where references to that transaction taking place have been made.

I guess Jresa's made a fool out of me then.

That's what you get for being a trusting soul

 

[tillson]

For our own information, we asked Jresa to provide substantiation regarding the transaction which the poster says they have, but have decided not to provide to us, instead deciding to remove/edit posts where references to that transaction taking place have been made.

If anyone has a problem with their --------------- don't phone ----------- for the next 20 minutes, they'll be busy on the computer.