Electric kit or new bike?

iain85

Pedelecer
Aug 5, 2010
187
4
I have a Kona Lavadome bike which I really like and if possible would like to keep this so was considering a kit to make it powered. Is this a good idea or should I just opt for a whole new bike designed around the electric power? I am quite practical so don't mind tinkering to make things work to some extent, however that said I don't want to spend ages designing brackets to make things fit!

Thanks,

Iain
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
I have a Kona Lavadome bike which I really like and if possible would like to keep this so was considering a kit to make it powered. Is this a good idea or should I just opt for a whole new bike designed around the electric power? I am quite practical so don't mind tinkering to make things work to some extent, however that said I don't want to spend ages designing brackets to make things fit!

Thanks,

Iain
Hi Iain, welcome :) I would definitely recommend the DIY route if you're happy with your bike and want to save some money.. I'm on my second conversion now and would never consider buying a ready made bike.. it's a really good experience going the DIY route, you learn a lot, but more importantly end up with a bike exactly to suit your liking and needs.

Converting a bike is not really difficult at all and is very quick in some cases. Particularly if you're doing a front hub wheel conversion..it's basically just a wheel change and a bit of wiring to sort out and deciding where to mount your battery and controller.

What sort of bike do you have? And what's your travel requirements? Perhaps we can advise you on what sort of setup would be best and how much it might cost so you can compare to buying a bike.
 

iain85

Pedelecer
Aug 5, 2010
187
4
Hi,
Thanks for the reply.
I quite like the idea of doing a conversion so good to hear you recommend it.
I have a Kona Lavadome hard tail mountain bike which I do light trail riding on. It's just for fun so only requirement would be reliable and strong pulling power up hills. Also would like throttle option as I'm used to motorbikes so like the idea of the throttle option.
Many thanks in advance.

Iain
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
Hi again Iain,

I posted in your other thread yesterday.

Our eZee kits are more expensive than the diy imports, but they have a proven track record of reliability, performance, UK support and a 2 year warranty.

Quite simply, we believe our kits are good value for money and the eZee Mk2 motor is the best on the market.

Please click on the following link for more details eZee Conversion Kits - electric bikes and conversion kits
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
Hi,
Thanks for the reply.
I quite like the idea of doing a conversion so good to hear you recommend it.
I have a Kona Lavadome hard tail mountain bike which I do light trail riding on. It's just for fun so only requirement would be reliable and strong pulling power up hills. Also would like throttle option as I'm used to motorbikes so like the idea of the throttle option.
Many thanks in advance.

Iain
The most popular route for cheap kits on here is BMS Battery or GreenBikeKit that are both located in Hong Kong/China and will ship to UK for a reasonable price*.. These two companies may be related we're not sure, they have much the same products and similar pricing with a few differences here and there.

Kit Choice

You can get a kit with the motor built into a wheel ready to fit, just have to choose front/rear and order the right wheel size and rim colour.. the kits are cheap but with decent quality motors, costing around £80 which includes the controller with a control panel, thumb throttle and pedal sensor, brake lever motor cut-out switches, everything you need. The kits come in different voltages (24v/36v/48v) and different motor ratings (250/350/500 Watts). The higher the voltage and wattage, the faster the motor will go..but if you want to stay road legal you're limited to a 250W motor... for general use with a good balance of speed and hill climbing power, I'd recommend a 250W 36v kit. If you prefer and have more budget, you can hand select what motor you use and buy a higher quality branded one separate and then have it custom built into a wheel rim. There's a guy on here called Catsnapper who does that for a reasonable price.

Battery choice

You'll need to buy a battery on top of that which they also supply.. I'd recommend a 10Ah battery as a minimum which will cost you about £115 for Lithium-Ion. I have a 36v 10Ah Lithium-Ion from BMS and it weighs only 2.3kg so not too heavy and the batteries are a proven technology so you can't really go wrong. 10Ah will get you about 4-6 miles on throttle only using full power, depending on your weight, and maybe 30-40 miles on pedal assist full power. I find 10Ah will get me up even the steepest hills without pedalling (even on a 26" 21kg bike) but saying that, I'm only a lightweight at 9 stone ;-)

You can get smaller "bottle batteries" now that will fit on the mainframe and look more discrete. However they are usually limited in capacity due to smaller size so you might only get 8Ah or 9Ah. You can buy two though of course and swap them out. If you're going for a big capacity battery for more hill climbing power and longer distance (15Ah or 20Ah) it probably makes sense to get a rack mounted incased battery and a purpose rack for it. Although you could just do what many do, and put a battery without case inside a rack bag or panniers, to reduce weight and make the bike look less electric. Probably depends on how you plan to use the bike and whether you need to leave it parked anywhere.

Front v Rear?

I don't think there's much difference really between front v rear wheel hub motors, maybe there's some, but not significant. I know some people here favour one over the other. I think the main benefit of front wheel is the ease of fitting..you won't have to mess with your gears. If you're considering rear wheel, you may have to downgrade your gears to 7 or 6-speed. For rear wheel though, I think the benefit is that the motor is more hidden and so the bike looks less-electric. Think about where you're going to mount your battery (on a rack, or on the handlebar with a bag?)..and that may help you decide whether to choose front or rear motor, it maybe makes more sense to have the motor closer to the battery as that means less cabling across the frame of the bike..

Drop-outs space and torque arms

Whether you go for front or rear, check your drop out width first and make sure there's adequate space for the motor (you will need 135mm for rear and 100mm for front). Normally with a 250W 36V motor you won't need to worry about torque or fitting torque arms (although some people like to do it as a precaution). If your bike is steel frame or steel fork, it's not likely to be an issue..with an aluminium fork, it's something to consider for front hub. Rear drops are usually fine even aluminium won't need any torque arms at this level of power.

LCD panels and more speed control

I purchased a Chinese kit from a company in Austria called rftec which is pretty much the same as what BMS/Green Bike Kit supply, except mine had a fancy LCD console for the controller with more control over the motor power and pedal assist-levels. Because of the LCD console I had to pay a price premium (I think I paid about £270+shipping for the kit without battery). There are other suppliers that will support kits and/or motors with these LCD consoles cheaper from China.. but if you want more control than the basic kit panel (which usually has on/off and 3 speeds) what you can do now is buy a speedict ebike computer for about £63 if you have a compatible mobile phone, it will work wirelessly via Bluetooth allowing you to see your speed/distance and control different aspects of the motor speed, throttle response and pedal assist levels etc. You'll need a smartphone running Android to get full benefit, but I think it will work with Java phones too but with less features.

I did a front wheel conversion a couple of years ago on a 26" folding MTB which was my first proper e-bike and it was very easy, not very challenging at all. However I had to improve and extend the wiring a bit which required fitting new connectors and doing some soldering, nothing major though, if you can change a fuse you can do it ;-) I've never had a days problem with my bike or kit, and the 36v 10Ah battery is still going strong which came from BMS Battery. I'm now just starting a second build (I've got the self-building bug like many on here!) and this time I'm doing a more challenging rear wheel custom wheel build for a 16" wheel folding bike. I'm buying all my parts from BMS Battery this time and planning to use a speedict with it.


* Don't forget when you're buying from overseas you'll have to pay VAT @ 20% + Duty about 3% and possibly a £15 "VAT deferral/clearance fee" to the courier, although I find if you just pay the import taxes and ignore the fee they don't bother pursuing it ;-)
 
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neptune

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 30, 2012
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353
Boston lincs
@Morphix. That was an interesting and fairly comprehensive reply. The only thing I find strange is that you say a 10 AH battery gives 4 to 6 miles on throttle only, My ancient Powabyke Euro with four year old lead acid batteries [ claimed as 12 AH when new] will still do 12 or 13 miles on throttle only. I weigh ten and a half stone.
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
@Morphix. That was an interesting and fairly comprehensive reply. The only thing I find strange is that you say a 10 AH battery gives 4 to 6 miles on throttle only, My ancient Powabyke Euro with four year old lead acid batteries [ claimed as 12 AH when new] will still do 12 or 13 miles on throttle only. I weigh ten and a half stone.
Thanks Neptune.. that is indeed interesting the big difference in range there! Maybe my motor is either more powerful in terms of maximum watts output (certainly under high torque load), or the controller is not as restricted? It was sold as 250W but when I'm going full pelt I seem to go over 15mph.. I can do 22-23mph sometimes with very light pedaling. Saying that, where I live is very hilly with some insanely steep hills.. what's it like over your way? Also my bike is usually heavily loaded as I use it for runs to the sorting office carrying about 4kg of packages.

Maybe it also just comes down to the battery chemistry.. I know Lead Acid are more suitable for taking heavy loads and sudden current drains like hills..compared to Li-Ion and LiFoPo4 where you need more Ah capacity to avoid the battery getting drained. I think once the voltage drops below a certain level from too much load the BMS will shut it off and make it appear the battery needs recharging, even though it still has juice..as like a self-protection measure, so it could be that too..that the BMS is just over-protective on my battery perhaps. But saying that, that is a good thing and extends the battery life I think. I do find my charge cycles are quite short, just 2 hrs. From completely flat, a bit over 3 hrs.
 
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hech

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 29, 2011
352
27
argyll
that's right Morphia you've gotta duff battery there, everyone knows you can get more than 4miles on a 10ah battery(throttle only)(that is)(!)
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
that's right Morphia you've gotta duff battery there, everyone knows you can get more than 4miles on a 10ah battery(throttle only)(that is)(!)
I don't think the battery is duff it works good, but maybe the controller and/or motor is more power hungry than the ones from BMS.. I got my kit from Austria. The bike is FAST I can do 23mph. If I use it on pedal assist it never needs charging for days and days. In fact when I used it on pedal assist it's never ran out so far.

Also I don't think it's 4 miles.. I do a round-trip to the sorting office (loaded with goods maybe 4-5kg) and that is about 2.5-3 miles each way (5-6 miles round trip)..I do it on full throttle and the battery holds out but it doesn't last long after that..I can't go say more than half a mile and it's flat then.
 
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morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
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Worcestershire
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I just bought a new Q100 motor and KU63 controller from BMS, so will be interesting to test them with the BMS 10Ah battery.. we can compare and see what performance it gives eh. Also I bought a speedict so that will give more precise info on the battery current draw/distance and speed, and I can test it on my old bike too.
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
Just seen Morphix's post above. It is extremely informative and very helpful to someone trying to get to grips with the basics. The battery placement thing is something I never thought about properly ... having a crank drive delivered "built" with the battery in the middle and a key to lock it in place, kind of assumed this was the "norm" but clearly not !

Is there any reason why a powerful battery can't be mounted in the centre somehow so as not to use up space which might be useful for something else (like a duffel-bag full of wetsuits on the luggage rack !) ? .. and if so do the "kit" versions have optional accessories which would allow these to be fitted like that ?

Guess I'm thinking of how these look when fitted .. albeit the bike and battery size/style would be different, the concept in my head is not dissimilar :

55 MPH 10,000W AWD Electric Offroad Mountain Bike from Hi-Power Cycles - YouTube
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
Thanks Alex! Have you seen those special racks which allow the battery to slide in and out underneath the rack leaving the rack space above free? BMS will supply those racks and the batteries designed to slide and lock in.. vertical mounting (for large capacity batteries) mid-frame is more tricky I think for a custom build as generally only bikes designed that way have mountings for holding larger batteries...but I suppose as an alternative you could use smaller batteries like the bottle shape (9-10Ah) which allows you to mount vertically.

My battery is 10Ah and it fairly cube shaped and small (2.3kg) so I think it could be mounted similar to the one in the video you posted if you got creative and found a suitable mid-position bag or something.. that's the good thing about self-build you can think outside the box and find something that works best for you.. there's loads of ways you can fix a battery up and the wiring is not really difficult.
 
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CycloTricity

Trade Member
Aug 8, 2012
54
24
www.cyclotricity.com
Hi,
Thanks for the reply.
I quite like the idea of doing a conversion so good to hear you recommend it.
I have a Kona Lavadome hard tail mountain bike which I do light trail riding on. It's just for fun so only requirement would be reliable and strong pulling power up hills. Also would like throttle option as I'm used to motorbikes so like the idea of the throttle option.
Many thanks in advance.

Iain
Hi Iain,

Perhaps you could consider our kits. We make very efficient hand-made motors with a strong pull, and they are practically silent. Throttles are included with all kits by default and we've got a range of different battery shapes that will go well with a Lavadome.

Rami
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Just seen Morphix's post above. It is extremely informative and very helpful to someone trying to get to grips with the basics. The battery placement thing is something I never thought about properly ... having a crank drive delivered "built" with the battery in the middle and a key to lock it in place, kind of assumed this was the "norm" but clearly not !

Is there any reason why a powerful battery can't be mounted in the centre somehow so as not to use up space which might be useful for something else (like a duffel-bag full of wetsuits on the luggage rack !) ? .. and if so do the "kit" versions have optional accessories which would allow these to be fitted like that ?

Guess I'm thinking of how these look when fitted .. albeit the bike and battery size/style would be different, the concept in my head is not dissimilar :

55 MPH 10,000W AWD Electric Offroad Mountain Bike from Hi-Power Cycles - YouTube
You can buy a special bag that fits in the triangle with velcro straps for about £50. You can even get a special triangular battery to goo in it.
52V 11.5Ah triangle A123 Pack
the problem is that many modern bikes have very small triangles, especially the full suspension ones. You can do it yourself by making a box out of plywood like I did on my two wheel drive RM:

 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
Thanks Alex! Have you seen those special racks which allow the battery to slide in and out underneath the rack leaving the rack space above free? BMS will supply those racks and the batteries designed to slide and lock in.. vertical mounting (for large capacity batteries) mid-frame is more tricky I think for a custom build as generally only bikes designed that way have mountings for holding larger batteries...but I suppose as an alternative you could use smaller batteries like the bottle shape (9-10Ah) which allows you to mount vertically.

My battery is 10Ah and it fairly cube shaped and small (2.3kg) so I think it could be mounted similar to the one in the video you posted if you got creative and found a suitable mid-position bag or something.. that's the good thing about self-build you can think outside the box and find something that works best for you.. there's loads of ways you can fix a battery up and the wiring is not really difficult.
I'd very likely want a 20Ah battery hence was thinking centre placement would be best .. the rack slot idea is interesting though. Would you still be able to hang panniers off the rack like you can with a regular frame ? I've usually got 2 x XL 35L ones, a rackbag or duffel strapped to the rack and a seatpost bag full of emergency tools. Travelling light has never been a particular skill :$ !
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
You can buy a special bag that fits in the triangle with velcro straps for about £50. You can even get a special triangular battery to goo in it.
52V 11.5Ah triangle A123 Pack
the problem is that many modern bikes have very small triangles, especially the full suspension ones. You can do it yourself by making a box out of plywood like I did on my two wheel drive RM:
That box solution looks great (as does the bike !). The triangle battery is a great idea but $600 + landing costs and only 11.5Ah is well "beyond" !!
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
I'd very likely want a 20Ah battery hence was thinking centre placement would be best .. the rack slot idea is interesting though. Would you still be able to hang panniers off the rack like you can with a regular frame ? I've usually got 2 x XL 35L ones, a rackbag or duffel strapped to the rack and a seatpost bag full of emergency tools. Travelling light has never been a particular skill :$ !
I think you would still be able to use panniers yes. You can see the racks on BMS tho and they might give some technical info so you can assess if panniers will work before you buy. The sliding under rack mount is probably the best way to mount a big 20Ah battery because of the size and weight..you wouldn't want to carry that thing around if you parked anywhere, so at least it's locked in the rack ;-)
 

Caph

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 29, 2008
440
11
Nottingham, UK
Iain, I am not alone in this forum for opting for the 8FUN kit. It is solid, reliable, quiet and easy to fit. You can get them off ebay for about £400. It should be your benchmark kit. They also do a bottle battery so you don't even need a rear rack.
 

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
Iain, I am not alone in this forum for opting for the 8FUN kit. It is solid, reliable, quiet and easy to fit. You can get them off ebay for about £400. It should be your benchmark kit. They also do a bottle battery so you don't even need a rear rack.
Can you get bottle bottles in 20Ah now? I've never seen them that high capacity..most I've seen is 10Ah.