Electric cars

Today i saw a nissan leaf,a female driver was parking it at my local shops,it did ask a few questions in my mind,and i thought about asking the driver a few of those questions,number 1 in my mind how much does it cost 2 rent the batteries,number 2 question is why would you buy one.well i noticed the west midlands police sticker on the bonnet,and realised we the taxpayers are paying for it.i looked up the battery costs myself,16.15 a week to rent the batteries at up to 7500 miles a year,its a no brainer to me electric cars just cost far too much to run,maybe in london with the congestion charge ,but elsewhere why would you.

Umm, W Midlands police are slumming it. In Glos, large BMWs seem to be the police car of choice.

I think PHEVs are going to catch on. Batteries are going down in price until last year at around 6% per annum, mostly due to better manufacturing process and electrode material, more capacity for the same price. From this year, it's more like 10% per annum. Within 8 years, we'll reach below $100 per kWH, batteries will be less than half their present weight, even quicker if Li-S batteries mature in time. Then the family cars will all be PHEVs.

Electric car battery costs are not going down in practical terms though.

 

The Nissan leaf's battery started at c. £15000 and went up to c, £16000, while at the same time the warranty reducing twice from 10 years all the way down to 5 years.

 

That's a huge increase.

 

Nor can one compare the four year term rental costs, since they aren't fixed, only quoted for year one.

 

I think e-cars are a dead duck for a long time, and I can't see them reaching much more than one percent of sales for more than a decade. And most of those as at present will be initiated by government or by the very wealthy.

Edited May 31, 201411 yr by flecc

this Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV will change people's perception of electric cars, same price as their diesel version, just better:

 

this Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV will change people's perception of electric cars, same price as their diesel version, just better:

 

But after 4 years you'll be able to get a handsome trade in on your diesel version, whereas the guy with the phev won't…

this Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV will change people's perception of electric cars, same price as their diesel version, just better:

 

But this isn't an electric car Trex, it's plug in hybrid.

 

Those certainly do have a good future and many users will be mostly in electric mode throughout their life. Non-plug-in hybrids are already very successful of course. Trade-in prices for plug-in hybrids are an unknown at present and are likely to be a bit lower once battery replacement costs are understood better, but that isn't going to dent their sales for a while.

 

But the true all-electric cars we are speaking of in this thread are a dead duck. The battery cost kills every aspect of ownership economics, preventing purchase by the masses.

PHEVs like the Mitsubishi Outlander above are primarily ICE vehicles, with bolt on batteries that can be charged by the ICE in 30 minutes while you continue driving. The car weighs 1810kg, average weight for a similar size car, has a 10 gallon tank and gives you an extended range about 800 miles, twice that of an average car. So if the battery dies, you can still use the car, the fuel economy won't be as good but it's not a write-off after 5 years if it were primarily electric.

(crossed with flecc's)

There is no way the grid can support pure electric cars. For the next 20 years, PHEV is the way to go. The battery capacity will expand, extending economy etc.

Edited May 31, 201411 yr by trex

Most of my journeys are short and fairly local so with some larger battery plug-in hybrids, most of the mileage would be all-electric from the mains charges, the i.c. engine hardly ever even cutting in at all. I could envisage some years when the engine would only start a few times, making it effectively an electric car!

 

And that would also be true for a high proportion of drivers.

 

The crazy additional cost of an all-electric car only provides around 40 or 50 additional miles range, not needed for local journeys but not enough for most longer ones. It really does make them pointless.

Yep, Flecc your usage is like mine, a 60 km or less battery only range with a small genset for the occasional longer run.

I wish they would do a small car with a small motor 25~30 kw and thus a small pack and generator which would hopefully make it a similar price to a normal small car.

I wish they would do a small car with a small motor 25~30 kw and thus a small pack and generator which would hopefully make it a similar price to a normal small car.

 

Couldn't agree more. Manufacturers have tended to concentrate on producing electric cars that are identical to petrol cars in both form and function, instead of radically adapting the design to the limitations (and benefits) of electrical propulsion.

 

I'd really like to see someone produce a range or super-light 2-seat and 1-seat cars that'll do a reliable 50 miles on one charge, at a cost of well under £10k. The technology is there to do it, but nobody wants to take a bet on it because it would be a new type of vehicle and, well, we all remember the C5.

Very fondly when I saw one last month. 200w motor 10 to 20 mile range with pedals. It was an early electric bike. Just 30 years ahead of the times.

I'd really like to see someone produce a range or super-light 2-seat and 1-seat cars that'll do a reliable 50 miles on one charge, at a cost of well under £10k. The technology is there to do it, but nobody wants to take a bet on it because it would be a new type of vehicle and, well, we all remember the C5.

 

Exactly what you ask for is already well established on the market, and very good too. For just under £7000, the Renault Twizy 1 to 2 seater.

8-)

Exactly what you ask for is already well established on the market, and very good too. For just under £7000, the Renault Twizy 1 to 2 seater.

 

No bloody doors! So nearly a car, just needs some doors.

I expect my car to be waterproof, so that I can leave it outside when I go to places in it.

 

Doors? Maybe they are out of fashion, and soggy trousers are in.

Or you buy the full door version.

http://www.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/renault_twizy_ev_sg_2-580x382.jpg

 

No bloody doors! So nearly a car, just needs some doors.

I expect my car to be waterproof, so that I can leave it outside when I go to places in it.

 

Doors? Maybe they are out of fashion, and soggy trousers are in.

 

Axolotl asked for a fresh thinking design that didn't follow existing cars, and this is exactly that.

 

For myself in this country I agree about the doors, and but for that would have bought one of these a couple of years ago. They are great to drive. Since then they've added a full door version, but I doubt it's a good solution. In that tiny closed space steaming up will be a huge problem, the screen demister reduces the range, and there's still no heater of course so one still needs to dress almost as if cycling or motorcycling in winter. These problems are why they made it an open design in the first place.

The problems of steaming up. shivering etc are not insurmountable, and solutions are possible. Most days, these problems do not exist. One possibility would be a tiny heating system powered from a small butane or propane cylinder of the type used in camping stoves. Careful design would be necessary to eliminate fire risk. Years ago when i drove a Bond Minicar, I used a Primus stove!

They would exist much more in this tiny cabin volume.

 

Very inconvenient too, especially for the multiple short journeys in what is essentially a town car. Having to constantly plug in and unplug daily or more is already a hassle compared to occasionally filling a fuel tank. Having to also check and change gas cylinders and have them run out mid journey wouldn't exactly be endearing.

 

Probably not fully fit for this purpose anyway, just beginning to get warm as one reaches the nearby town destination only for all the heat to escape the tiny volume the moment the door is open.

 

Could be enough for demisting though, but would add a lot to the car price.

6 ebuses just started up in York. Hardly anyone using them apparently !

The problems of steaming up. shivering etc are not insurmountable, and solutions are possible. Most days, these problems do not exist. One possibility would be a tiny heating system powered from a small butane or propane cylinder of the type used in camping stoves. Careful design would be necessary to eliminate fire risk. Years ago when i drove a Bond Minicar, I used a Primus stove!

Condensation is a major byproduct of butane/propane heaters.

6 ebuses just started up in York. Hardly anyone using them apparently !

 

One in Dorchester too, running in and out of adjacent Poundbury. It runs out of battery half way through the day so then a diesel bus takes over. That e-bus was a pointless waste of it's huge cost, but last I heard they were thinking of buying a second one to solve the problem!

One in Dorchester too, running in and out of adjacent Poundbury. It runs out of battery half way through the day so then a diesel bus takes over. That e-bus was a pointless waste of it's huge cost, but last I heard they were thinking of buying a second one to solve the problem!

They claim 50 mile range then 30 min charge. They are operating from a brand new park and ride site. 4 are running from here. One assumes they have done their sums right!

The Dorchester one apparently doesn't fast charge, hence it being out of service half way through the day. Obviously they've made a poor choice. They'd have been better off with other options such as induction charging, fast charging or hybrid, but all are very expensive.