Electric Car Innovation fron China

[flecc]

Just heard about the new BYD electric hybrid on a Radio 4 program, and it strikes me as a very sensible cheaper way of having hybrid power than the expensive and immensely complex Toyota Prius.

Quite simply, it's an electric car when setting off, with a top speed of 100 mph and acceleration of around 10 seconds to 60 mph, both very respectable and competitive with petrol cars. After around 80 to 180 miles depending on how driven, the battery runs out and then it's petrol engine automatically takes over the running. Charging is from mains electricity so has the potential to be much more green than recharging from it's petrol engine.

Since the vast majority of all car journeys are well under 80 miles, this is virtually a full time electric car, only becoming a petrol one for very long journeys, the benefits of a full electric car but retaining the ability for the odd long journey. Those who still think the Chinese don't innovate and only copy should start to think again, since this is a genuinely new concept.

BYD are using their own Lithium Iron Phosphate battery which, as expected for this type, has a life of some 2000 charges, giving at least 160,000 electric miles. And that BYD name? It stands for Build Your Dreams, and the car is a much better looker than usual for an electric as you'll see below. The sooner these hit the market the better:

 

[Barnowl]

Yes that is interesting. It will be even more interesting to see them in real life.
I'm still amazed at the success of the Toyota Prius. I've seen so many of them on the roads.
I like the idea of driving a quiet car that accelerates fast and is not wasting energy when it's standing still but like you I'm wary of real world cost. Practical Electic cars have been touted by the media as being just around the corner for at least 20 years. It's almost 2009 and we're still dependent the infernal combustion engine.

Link to BYD BBC news article:

BBC NEWS | Programmes | From Our Own Correspondent | Revving China's auto industry

 

[Barnowl]

BYD are using their own Lithium Iron Phosphate battery which, as expected for this type, has a life of some 2000 charges, giving at least giving at least 160,000 electric miles.

That would mean that for most people the battery would exceed the life expectancy of the car. Or does Lithium Iron Phosphate battery have the inherent degredation % per annum capacity loss that would limit practical life expectency of the battery anyway to say 5 years?

 

[flecc]

That would mean that for most people the battery would exceed the life expectancy of the car. Or does Lithium Iron Phosphate battery have the inherent degredation % per annum capacity loss that would limit practical life expectency of the battery anyway to say 5 years?

Probably not, since the degradation is in part due to the unsuitability of the cathode materials used, manganese not being very high up the scale of suitability and below the original but less safe cobalt.

By contrast, iron is the highest on the scale of suitability, better than any other element for the purpose, hence the long term pursuit to develop these batteries. They are thought of as "life of vehicle" batteries and will open up the e-vehicle market considerably eventually.

Although also a cynic about electric cars and the many promises, this concept of using it makes so much sense that I think it could well succeed. Why anyone would call it copycat as implied in the BBC article I can't imagine, since it is an entirely new way of using electric and petrol power, very different from the Prius method and much more green.
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[Barnowl]

Yes I totally agree. It is something different and a "life of vehicle" battery will open up the e-vehicle market considerably. The range and acceleration look to be excellent.
It's certainly something I'd consider buying. With petrol prices almost certain to rise dramatically at some point in the not too distant future it does look like BYD are going the right way. Best approach I've seen so far.

Bound to be a catch!

 

[flecc]

I'll certainly be interested at renewal time. In buying two new cars this year I was again looking at electrics as my town car, but they just aren't ready so I settled for a very compact economical town car and a larger one for open road purposes.

Something like the BYD would replace both so the price wouldn't be too important.

China seems like a good place to develop the bugs out of it, given the market size and a not very sophisticated motor industry national support structure giving potentially hard usage conditions.
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[Barnowl]

Link to the BYD site:

F3e technology--BYD AUTO

"The DM hybrid system is an advanced technology which integrates two hybrid powers to control electricity generator and electric motor, thus not only massively reducing fuel consumption and emission but also enhancing the power and operation performance. In addition, it enables dual energy supplies via both recharging and refueling, which makes up the dual mode hybrid system in the real sense. If we call an electric driven system “EV” and the hybrid electric system “HEV”, then BYD DM should be named “EV + HEV”. This system is bound to replace the traditional electric-gasoline hybrid system, becoming the most popular and advanced new energy hybrid system in the world.!"

 

[flecc]

In addition, it enables dual energy supplies via both recharging and refueling, which makes up the dual mode hybrid system in the real sense. If we call an electric driven system “EV” and the hybrid electric system “HEV”, then BYD DM should be named “EV + HEV”.

With the bit of hype deleted, the above is absolutely true, it is a true hybrid with dual power sources.

I'm no fan of the Prius and have long challenged Toyota's incorrect description of it as a hybrid. It isn't, it's just another petrol car since petrol is it's sole energy source. The regeneration doesn't count since it's just recovery of earlier expended petrol energy. All it does is convert some petrol sourced energy into a chemical state in the battery, this subsequently converted to electrical energy to drive an electric motor. Since all energy conversion incurs efficiency losses, having two conversion stages is very inefficient, and it follows that a pure petrol version should be able to improve on it's consumption since it would avoid conversion losses.

Trouble is that wouldn't suit the marketing department.
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[JohnofCambridge]

I guess it will still be pricey with two engines.

Oil based cars are getting so much cheaper as their manufacturers cannot shift their volume of manufacture and this means there will be a strong disincentive to go electric

There was an article in the Telegraph last week stating, if I remember rightly that the Electric car market had only registered 1100 cars or so over the last year and this was 54% down on the year before and this was during a period of very high petrol prices!

The BYD design certainly looks better than most straight electrics. My fear is that it will take a huge shift in public perception to gain a wide acceptance worldwide. Most emerging economies have lousy electrical power generation too and they are going to be the biggest users of cars soon.

There is much to be done and it is good to see a breakthrough that might help

 

[flecc]

Yes, I saw that intriguing reduction in e-car sales John, and since I also abandoned the idea of one a year ago I'm part of the problem!

The fact is that they are still not acceptable as substitutes at present. Some are beginning to get close, but I think this BYD concept holds more promise than most to date as it truly substitutes for long distance use as well, a major objection to most other designs with their short ranges.

The cost will be higher, but lower than the very complex two motor Prius if the battery cost is excluded from both. Adding in the batteries will make the BYD dearer, but as it's a battery for life, that will be amortised at a low annual rate over as much as a ten year life.
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[Barnowl]

I think sales will largely be driven by potential cost savings. A bit like electric bikes they may be a bit misleading but who cares once you've bought it. As long as it improves your quality of life and it's enjoyable.

Having a car like this for city commuting and around town could be a massive improvement on petrol/diesel. The journeys (as pointed out by a Prius owner/member) would be less stressful, with the added satisfaction that you are probably doing less harm to the local environment.

I don't think environmental concerns should be underestimated. It's an issue (or at least a nagging thought) for many potential buyers and also a big political concern.

Then there's image. People will spend money if they think a vehicle enhances their status/image. A car like this from any manufacturer could be a big success. It all depends which way the wind is blowing. My feeling is that the number of electric/hybrid cars on the road will increase dramatically over the next 5 years.