ebike law changes coming....

Just had a phone call with direct news from Germany about what is coming. (note Germany, not Austria - I've not heard about this from KTM). This is a very very very credible source.

This might not be 100% correct, but you'll get the gist I hope of the new laws.

Basically "tuning motors" is going to end. All the countries in the EU think the brands are basically ignoring the law. So the motor brands will have to legally stop their motors being tune able if they want to sell in the EU.

So they will have a system built in where if you ride it turned, after 90 minutes the motor assistance speed will be reduced by 10kph. If you keep doing it, after another 90 minutes it'll be cut by another 10kphh until eventually you just have a heavy bike with a motor that doesn't work, or something along those lines.

All the brands will also have to be able to prove that the motors have been modified and stop it.

The other good new is that the change is potentially going to run parallel with an increase in the motor speed restriction from 25kph, up to 35kph.

Good news on both accounts I think.

Well the second part is certainly good news in my opinion.

We'll surely if they increase the speed as pretty much everyone has been requesting, then they also remove the need to tune don't they?

That would be really great!

Along with that they should also begin to enforce speed limits on cycle paths.

Along with that they should also begin to enforce speed limits on cycle paths.

Its hard to enforce something, when bikes aren't legally required to have a method of checking your speed.

Its hard to enforce something, when bikes aren't legally required to have a method of checking your speed.

Good point...I didn't think about that

I wonder if we would then be able to legally tune our current motors to 35kph?

I'm sure it'd just be a software update.

That would be really great!

Along with that they should also begin to enforce speed limits on cycle paths.

Careful what you wish for. Yes I ride an ebike on cycle paths but it is still restricted inspite of my ability to derestrict it. Nothing burns me anymore than idiots I see travelling at speeds 25mph or more. If we have have speed limits on shared paths they will be much lower than 15mph. You can take that to the bank. What this will do is polarize pedestrians against cyclists even more so as the limits will be unenforcable.

We can't even get cyclists to have a bell much less use them when encountering pedestrians. What we need is a solid self safety education policy within the cycling community itself. A self policing policy unheld by responsible cyclist will do far more than speed zones. One can always dream.

Basically "tuning motors" is going to end. All the countries in the EU think the brands are basically ignoring the law. So the motor brands will have to legally stop their motors being tune able if they want to sell in the EU.

Where is this directive coming from? The EU?

Seeing as the UK will no longer be members of the EU this may well be a non-story!

This would be good news for folk like me who occasionally like a little bit over the current 15mph limit.

Would the S class still continue?

Where is this directive coming from? The EU?

 

Seeing as the UK will no longer be members of the EU this may well be a non-story!

Well yes, and no....

Even if we do actually leave, this EU directive / law will (like pretty much all of them) still have a strong influence. The UK government have already said they'll just copy and paste the EU laws.

Then if we don't just copy and paste them we're going to have to copy this one. The UK isn't a big enough market to demand special products. Just look at when we did have special UK law on eBIkes.. we had 200w limit when the rest of the EU was 250w. We eventually caught up. The same would happen inside or outside the EU. We're not forced to take these things up even now.

The other good new is that the change is potentially going to run parallel with an increase in the motor speed restriction from 25kph, up to 35kph.

 

Good news on both accounts I think.

But unfortunately not for us.

Usage is determined nationally and we have a record of greater restriction than the rest of the EU. A second aspect is our departure from the EU. A third factor is our determination to treat everything capable of over 15.5 mph as a motorcycle, even in one case those restricted to 15.5 mph (L1e-A). A fourth factor is that the DfT take over a decade to make any necessary change in pedelec law, since they don't see it as important.

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But unfortunately not for us.

 

Usage is determined nationally and we have a record of greater restriction than the rest of the EU. A second aspect is our departure from the EU. A third factor is our determination to treat everything capable of over 15.5 mph as a motorcycle, even in one case those restricted to 15.5 mph (L1e-A). A fourth factor is that the DfT take over a decade to make any necessary change in pedelec law, since they don't see it as important.

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All true of course... but you aren't going to find Bosch, Shimano, Brose etc etc, making motors for UK specific market. We'll be forced to follow like we were with the 250w upgrade.

Also its coming 2019, when even by anyones estimates we'll still be very much inside the EU.

So I suspect we'll get the restrictions on turning, but possibly not the increase speed... We will see.

All true of course... but you aren't going to find Bosch, Shimano, Brose etc etc, making motors for UK specific market. We'll be forced to follow like we were with the 250w upgrade.

Agreed , but with usage under our control and usage law, they'll be registered, insured, number plated, and the rider will have to be m/c helmeted and with the right driving licence. We always used to have that for all assisted bikes and still do in a part of the UK, Northern Ireland.

Also its coming 2019, when even by anyones estimates we'll still be very much inside the EU.

That has no effect, as said, usage law is ours, not the EU's.

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Edited November 3, 20178 yr by flecc

true, but the bit about stopping tuning isn't changing the law, its actually enforcing the current one.

But yes, I take your point about the speed limit change, it would need the UK to change its law to reflect the motors being produced if indeed the speed limit suggested by the EU is offered.

the bit about stopping tuning isn't changing the law, its actually enforcing the current one.

And one I fully agree with Col, sharing your position on this.

But yes, I take your point about the speed limit change, it would need the UK to change its law to reflect the motors being produced

It's surprising how stubborn countries can be on such changes. Until very recently Australia had our old 200 watts law so rigidly enforced that no-one tried to export 250 watt bikes to them. Led by the State of Victoria there's some easement now, but I believe individual States still have the last word. Where they have accepted 250 watts now, they still have a rigidly enforced 15.5 mph assist limit, so these new faster machines will once again be excluded from their market.

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Is it April the first or did your source find that on a post somewhere dated April 1st. It's absolutely impossible for the control system of a crank-drive bike to know what speed the bike is going. Whatever speed sensor they used, including GPS, it wouldn't take a genius 5 minutes to figure out how to blank it off and send a different signal like the present dongles do. Even if they could do it with encrypted codes, there would be an immediate market for after-market controllers. All motors work the same, so it's relatively easy to use a different controller and control system.

I can remember in 1999 when they brought out DVDs. They said it would take the most powerful computers a million years to crack the security encryption system. A gang of hackers did it in about 3 hours, so we could all copy DVDs. Even when they brought out the DVDHD and Blueray encryption, which was even more sophisticated and secure, it still didn't take long for the hackers to have a decryption system. 13,256,278,887,***,***,***,***,***,***,401,704,640 is the magic number. I think it's actually an illegal number, so I blanked out the middle.

Is it April the first or did your source find that on a post somewhere dated April 1st. It's absolutely impossible for the control system of a crank-drive bike to know what speed the bike is going. Whatever speed sensor they used, including GPS, it wouldn't take a genius 5 minutes to figure out how to blank it off and send a different signal like the present dongles do. Even if they could do it with encrypted codes, there would be an immediate market for after-market controllers. All motors work the same, so it's relatively easy to use a different controller and control system.

 

I can remember in 1999 when they brought out DVDs. They said it would take the most powerful computers a million years to crack the security encryption system. A gang of hackers did it in about 3 hours, so we could all copy DVDs. Even when they brought out the DVDHD and Blueray encryption, which was even more sophisticated and secure, it still didn't take long for the hackers to have a decryption system. 13,256,278,887,***,***,***,***,***,***,401,704,640 is the magic number. I think it's actually an illegal number, so I blanked out the middle.

My source is someone at Bosch... Read isn't that what you like.

Is it April the first or did your source find that on a post somewhere dated April 1st. It's absolutely impossible for the control system of a crank-drive bike to know what speed the bike is going. Whatever speed sensor they used, including GPS, it wouldn't take a genius 5 minutes to figure out how to blank it off and send a different signal like the present dongles do. Even if they could do it with encrypted codes, there would be an immediate market for after-market controllers. All motors work the same, so it's relatively easy to use a different controller and control system.

 

I can remember in 1999 when they brought out DVDs. They said it would take the most powerful computers a million years to crack the security encryption system. A gang of hackers did it in about 3 hours, so we could all copy DVDs. Even when they brought out the DVDHD and Blueray encryption, which was even more sophisticated and secure, it still didn't take long for the hackers to have a decryption system. 13,256,278,887,***,***,***,***,***,***,401,704,640 is the magic number. I think it's actually an illegal number, so I blanked out the middle.

Totally agree with you. This is a none story the speed limited increase is good of course, but if the motor is mechanically capable of further speed / power there will be people out there able to hack the firmware / software. This is the case with most things. Enough said!

My source is someone at Bosch... Read isn't that what you like.

I understand and i'm sure Bosch will try their very best to adhere to potential new laws, but again there are people out there who will be able to get around the firmware / software. Examples, PS4, XBOX, Car chip tuning, etc etc etc. Good luck there Bosch!!!

Edited November 3, 20178 yr by Wheel-E

I understand and i'm sure Bosch will try their very best to adhere to potential new laws, but again there are people out there who will be able to get around the firmware / software. Examples, PS4, XBOX, Car chip tuning, etc etc etc. Good luck there Bosch!!!

Just a clear difference .... changing none of those things breaks the law does it? and there is no requirement by national governments to stop them doing it.

The clear difference in this case is that the motor brands can stop it, they just don't have the current commercial need to do it. They've admitted it, because if one brand does it people will just shop elsewhere. Now its being stamped on from the top, the motor brands will all have to have shown they are stopping it.

From what I've been told, this isn't going to be hard for them to do it, and they are keen to do it, so that all eBikes aren't simply categories as motorbikes and we loose the freedoms we currently benefit from.

This will do wonders for the bike retailers re: warranty. The future, a bit like Bosch would want, where you can only get the motor fixed by a certified fixerupper person and only order parts through channel partners.

I guess, much like car engines where replacement parts are coded to the ECU and will fail if third party. Of course, then the tweaks and a small bump chip to make the incredibly much cheaper lightbulb with the non vendor firmware work.

Electrical engineering is a fairly well known science... good luck stopping the tinker people. The true nature behind electromagnetism not so well known, but enough to get by.

My take on any changes, there would be some new teeth with a law if you are caught going obviously too fast for a legally certified bike.