Ebike drive choice for commute and touring

[Branko]

Hello,

I'm totally new to e-bikes. I've been looking at a steel frame touring ebike (from poison-bikes, a German company) with a Go SwissDrive rear hub direct drive motor, with 558 Wh battery.

I'm a reasonably fit recreational cyclist, weighing in at 75kg, and I've been looking at an ebike which would serve me for my purposes:
- Going to work periodically, on the days when the wife is inclined to take the kids to kindergarten, anyway. The distance is short, maybe two kilometers distance, tops, but with a long hill which varies between 6%-10% grade (and a very short 10 meter stretch of 14% climb), which gets me quite damn sweaty.
- Going to town periodically, which involves going up the same hill (mostly smooth sailing after that, with gentle slopes and descents afterwards) and is about 10-12km away.
- Periodical joyrides, around 40-50 km there and back.
- Doing a longer tour (cca 700 km total, there and back) on a bike twice per year.

Mostly, I want the assitance with the hill climbs. I don't mind pedalling on flat ground at all and am not looking to break speed records on the bike, but I hate getting to places all sweaty, it's the reason why I only use a normal bike for recreation.

I was thinking the regeneration capability of a direct drive would be useful on long descents which are plentiful around here, is it really?

Does this drive make it (much) harder to pedal with the assistance off at 20-25 km/hr? This is my big worry with the direct drive, because if it is so it would be quite unsuitable for very long rides where I cannot count on battery power - my thinking was to conserve battery on flats.

Do you know of any other steel frame (I don't want an aluminum frame) quality touring e-bikes out there?

There's a flood of hybrid and MTB aluminum frames with Bosch motors, but I don't want one of them.

 

[Nealh]

Direct drive hubs add about 5.5 - 6kg to a wheel and being gear less will be a pain /hardwork to pedal unpowered. Also they are usually high speed wound for rpm so not so good for steep hills unless you use higher voltage and high amps to get more out of them.
A conversion might be worth considering if you find the bike you like, for local/commute riding then a Q128C or Q128H for derailleur gears are good, small, very quite and powerful. Alternately a torque sensor Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid drive coupled with Alfine 8 hub gears for a nice touring set up.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Just about everybody that bought a bike with that or a similar DD motor didn't like them. If I were you, I'd get a bike with a Chinese geared hub-motor because they free-wheel much better and you can pedal them comfortably without power.

 

[Branko]

Yeah, front drive and alfine 8-gear seem like an interesting and cheaper combination, the price of the bike with swissdrive option is at the top of my budget.

I'm uncomfortable about an IGH being burdened by both me and a crank motor, but front wheel shouldn't stress it.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Yeah, front drive and alfine 8-gear seem like an interesting and cheaper combination, the price of the bike with swissdrive option is at the top of my budget.

I'm uncomfortable about an IGH being burdened by both me and a crank motor, but front wheel shouldn't stress it.

The only one that is not recommended is the Alfine 11 speed, a Rohloff is designed to handle 110 Nm of torque. Them being German they may have a security margin on that number...

Front drive is a very un-bike like ride if you have done a few km on ordinary bikes. Personal taste I guess but I wouldn't have one. Good as a commuter on a flat straight ride I guess, neither of those conditions prevail in my area.

I have both hub and mid drive, if you buy a hub a geared cassette rear hub is the best choice. You can find 10 or 11 speed cassettes that are narrower than 8-9 speed ones I have just discovered so for gearing a 1 x 10 or 1 x 11 keeps things nice and simple.

 

[spanos]

An added advantage front hub/rear igh (alfine 8 for me) is the fail safe aspect

Electrics fail - no problem, bike still works

Chain breaks, no problem- motor still functions so bike still works

Igh have far fewer failures in terms of gear slip or skip, need no adjustment or maintainece by comparison. And less prone to damage in bangs, crashes and bike rack bashes

Add some marathon plus tyres and you got about as reliable a commuter as is possible

Personally I prefer this setup for commuting. I do have mid drive mtb bike with deraileurs too

 

[anotherkiwi]

An added advantage front hub/rear igh (alfine 8 for me) is the fail safe aspect

Electrics fail - no problem, bike still works

Chain breaks, no problem- motor still functions so bike still works

Igh have far fewer failures in terms of gear slip or skip, need no adjustment or maintainece by comparison. And less prone to damage in bangs, crashes and bike rack bashes

Add some marathon plus tyres and you got about as reliable a commuter as is possible

Personally I prefer this setup for commuting. I do have mid drive mtb bike with deraileurs too

Rear hub motor and mid drive:

Electrics fail bike still works - both types
Chain breaks motor still works (PAS or throttle) - rear hub only

One of my favorite ideas is a pinion gearbox with a rear hub motor. Much better weight distribution than either front hub or rear hub, lighter than mid-drive + IGH. Rare as hens teeth though.

 

[spanos]

Rear hub motor and mid drive:

Electrics fail bike still works - both types
Chain breaks motor still works (PAS or throttle) - rear hub only

One of my favorite ideas is a pinion gearbox with a rear hub motor. Much better weight distribution than either front hub or rear hub, lighter than mid-drive + IGH. Rare as hens teeth though.

Yeah but still got those pesky easily damaged or misfiring deraileurs !

Had to look that up that gear thing

Never heard of pinion before. Very clever stuff. My kinda thing totally though. Clean and bullet proof

Go whole hog then and have a belt too . Or even a shaft drive? (Fully appreciated that the hole in frame and efficiency are respective issues)

 

[Branko]

I've seen them. Well equipped steel frame + pinion + swissdrive is, however, in the 5000-6000 eur range and my limit is about 4k, and even that is kind of stretched, I'd be much more comfortable with 3k. The only problem I see with it - if it breaks down, which is extremely unlikely, you're basically stuck (torque sensor at the motor and no throttle). If a derailleur breaks you can rig the thing as a single speed and that with motor assist isn't too bad, and every bike shop even in a small town can fix a derailleur.

If I went with Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid drive, I could get to desired 3k price with a good battery, but is it reliable? I've read conflicting reports, with PAS cutting off, etc, etc.

 

[Perseus]

An added advantage front hub/rear igh (alfine 8 for me) is the fail safe aspect

Electrics fail - no problem, bike still works

Chain breaks, no problem- motor still functions so bike still works

Igh have far fewer failures in terms of gear slip or skip, need no adjustment or maintainece by comparison. And less prone to damage in bangs, crashes and bike rack bashes

Add some marathon plus tyres and you got about as reliable a commuter as is possible

Personally I prefer this setup for commuting. I do have mid drive mtb bike with deraileurs too

Real wheel punctures negate this advantage.

 

[spanos]

Real wheel punctures negate this advantage.

No they dont

 

[Perseus]

No they dont

Don't you have to unfasten the rear hub?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Don't you have to unfasten the rear hub?

People keep saying this, but it most cases, it's completely unnececessary. I guess they don't fix their own punctures because they don't know how.

Just lever the tyre off one side, pull out the tube, pump some air in to find the puncture, fix the puncture, remove the thorn/glass/nail from the tyre, push the tube back in, push the tyre back on and pump up the tyre.

 

[Perseus]

People keep saying this, but it most cases, it's completely unnececessary. I guess they don't fix their own punctures because they don't know how.

Just lever the tyre off one side, pull out the tube, pump some air in to find the puncture, fix the puncture, remove the thorn/glass/nail from the tyre, push the tube back in, push the tyre back on and pump up the tyre.

Less than 50% with me can be fixed this way. .

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Less than 50% with me can be fixed this way. .

That's weird. I must have had 100 punctures in my e-biking career. I fixed every one at the roadside using exactly that method. One time, I had six snake-bite punctures at once when I hit a pothole. Four of them were slits about 6mm long. They all got fixed, though that used up all my patches, which made me a bit nervous during the 20 odd miles home.

Another time, I had thorns in the back and front wheels at the same time, and guess what? I'd forgotten my pump. I was thinking about calling for help, when I noticed a guy cleaning his car on the driveway of a big country house, which was the only house around, so I asked him if he had a pump. aAfter 10 minutes rummaging in his garage, yippee! - he produced a pump that worked perfectly.