drowing in options

stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
Hi, at age 76 my cycle rides are becoming limited by rubber legs, so an ebike might be sensible.

The Which best buy Trek Verve+1 at discontinued price £1444 with 500 Ah battery looks tempting.
The Chinese Fiido C11 Pro is cheaper, nicer looking, similar specs, with a frame mounted battery and £999, but no UK service - don't think I trust it.
There are lots of others within say £1800 price range, especially if the latest offering is not sought.
Someone suggested German makes like Kalkoff or even Flyer are better, but performance/cost ratio seems poor?

Goals:
500 Wh+ battery and 250W power, with reasonable mechanical efficiency and well inflated tyres should give me all the support I need.
Good control and performance on the odd steep hill.
Reliable and replaceable components including a safe battery.
"Hybrid" type - mostly used on road, but some rough paths.
Flexible pedal assist, not leg replacement wanted.
Easy control of assist and gears and reliable battery usage display (mph etc. also of interest)
Value for money.
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
2,371
1,596
Your best guide is to test ride the main types of ebike to see how you like them. Try mid drive and hub motor types, decide if you need a low step or step through frame, and go from there.

Are there any bike shops or people you know with ebikes that could help with that?
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
7,859
3,622
Telford
Hi, at age 76 my cycle rides are becoming limited by rubber legs, so an ebike might be sensible.

The Which best buy Trek Verve+1 at discontinued price £1444 with 500 Ah battery looks tempting.
The Chinese Fiido C11 Pro is cheaper, nicer looking, similar specs, with a frame mounted battery and £999, but no UK service - don't think I trust it.
There are lots of others within say £1800 price range, especially if the latest offering is not sought.
Someone suggested German makes like Kalkoff or even Flyer are better, but performance/cost ratio seems poor?

Goals:
500 Wh+ battery and 250W power, with reasonable mechanical efficiency and well inflated tyres should give me all the support I need.
Good control and performance on the odd steep hill.
Reliable and replaceable components including a safe battery.
"Hybrid" type - mostly used on road, but some rough paths.
Flexible pedal assist, not leg replacement wanted.
Easy control of assist and gears and reliable battery usage display (mph etc. also of interest)
Value for money.
If you're capable of fixing electrical stuff yourself, you can get a perfectly adequate ebike for around £500 that'll last you a lifetime. They have standard parts that are easily and cheaply available from a number of sources.

If you can't do that, it's best to buy a bike from a local dealer and take whatever they have, and hope that the manufacturer will still have the necessary spare parts when you'll need them. In that case, you should buy a bike with a well-known and well-established system, like Bosch, Wisper, otherwise you'll end up with a garden trellis for your peas or beans in a few years time.

Other than that, you can gamble on how long you're likely to live and what's the chance of the bike going wrong in that time. Price has little bearing on that.
 

Peter.Bridge

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
1,531
710
It might not look the sleekest, but from a practicality, simplicity, ease of maintenance and customer service / long life I would go for


540Wh or 612Wh battery options
 

stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
If you're capable of fixing electrical stuff yourself, you can get a perfectly adequate ebike for around £500 that'll last you a lifetime. They have standard parts that are easily and cheaply available from a number of sources.

If you can't do that, it's best to buy a bike from a local dealer and take whatever they have, and hope that the manufacturer will still have the necessary spare parts when you'll need them. In that case, you should buy a bike with a well-known and well-established system, like Bosch, Wisper, otherwise you'll end up with a garden trellis for your peas or beans in a few years time.

Other than that, you can gamble on how long you're likely to live and what's the chance of the bike going wrong in that time. Price has little bearing on that.
Well I used to work as an electronics engineer, before I switched to being a mathematician, so the electrics and indeed the life stats should be within my grasp :). Clearly most bikes in the £1..2k range would be usable, but I want to make a rational choice - apart from anything else it is an absorbing game, and anyway I hate wishing I had made another decision, when it is too late.

I was hoping there would be a chorus of suggestions for a small subset of the make/model search range. You know - make sure you get this feature or avoid that one, or do/don't trust this make.

Mostly I have been looking at machines using Bosch and Shimano bits, for quality, reliability and likelihood of spares.

I don't know of a bike shop in my area which will let me try out the bikes. I will have a look in a wider area, on line.
 

stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
It might not look the sleekest, but from a practicality, simplicity, ease of maintenance and customer service / long life I would go for


540Wh or 612Wh battery options
"ease of maintenance and customer service / long life" would be good things, though not obvious from this supplier. I would expect a Bosch motor and battery, and a thrust sensor as a starting point normally.
I have not seen the make of motor or battery they use mentioned elsewhere, and what on earth is a sine wave controller - sounds like nonsense?
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
7,859
3,622
Telford
"ease of maintenance and customer service / long life" would be good things, though not obvious from this supplier. I would expect a Bosch motor and battery, and a thrust sensor as a starting point normally.
I have not seen the make of motor or battery they use mentioned elsewhere, and what on earth is a sine wave controller - sounds like nonsense?
Don't be too judgemental. The Woosh bike is a pretty standard Chinese bike that has standard parts that are all easily obtainable and/or upgradeable, similar to many Chinese bikes, but the Woosh has good backup for support and service.

You can buy bikes for half the price from Amazon and Ebay, but you're on your own when it comes to getting the readily available parts, and the guarantees don't count for much, but that's no problem when the parts are so cheap and you can get acomplete spare bike for the same price.

When you buy a Bosch or Shimano bike, you have virtually no chance to fix anything yourself and any parts that you need will be pretty expensive, though they're generally quite reliable. Any ebike will need a new battery after a few years. How long the motor lasts depends a lot on the conditions in which you use it. They do suffer from water ingress if used on dirty winter roads or muddy paths.

It's difficult to recommend any specific bike without knowing your weight because weight makes a big difference.

One more thing. All the bikes recommended by magazines, Which and internet best buy sites are only done so on the basis of marketing, bribes and that sort of things. They sound very convincing, but often lack key points and information, so be careful. It's better to take advice from actual riders. I've been riding ebikes of every type for around 15 years. They all worked. They all do 15.5 mph with power. Some have a lot more power than others. When it comes to range, it's pretty simple - the bigger the battery (capacity), the further you go. Don't take any notice of what they say in listings. As a global average, 360wh gets you around 30 miles. Avoid any bikes with special features, like phone apps that lock them, sensors that adjust power for hills or anything that a normal Bosch or Chinese bike doesn't have. If you want reliability, keep things simple. My advice is to only get a bike with disc brakes, which most have. Rim brakes just don't cut it.

Another option if you already have a bike with disc brakes is to install the motor and battery yourself. It's pretty straight-forward if you know how to use a screwdriver and hammer, and you know how to connect matching connectors together. Woosh do some pretty good kits that work as very well, or if you want perfection, you van make your own mix-and-match kit with the best components. When you do a DIY conversion, you're master of your own destiny when it comes to servicing, upgrading and any repairs. Plus it's satisfying to do it.
 

thelarkbox

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 23, 2023
1,437
447
oxon
Fwiw when first looking into an ebike i did 'my homework' and almost everything i read pointed me towards the more mechanically efficient mid drive bikes. I was almost about to pull the trigger on a mid drive kit when i landed here.

Eventually I opted for a yose-power rear wheel kit to fit to my 'old lady' bike (see icon) almost 2 years ago. So far im Very content and pleased with the hub drive..
 

Peter.Bridge

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
1,531
710
Well I used to work as an electronics engineer, before I switched to being a mathematician, so the electrics and indeed the life stats should be within my grasp :).
In that case buy a nice secondhand bike off eBay with disc brakes, a frame triangle big enough to put a battery on the downtube, quick release wheels and a square taper bottom bracket and fit an e-bike kit. You can do your own maintenance and upgrade components if you want

You need to take account of your weight, which is the steepest hill you are likely to go up, how far you would like to go to design the ultimate bike for you
 
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Peter.Bridge

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
1,531
710
"ease of maintenance and customer service / long life" would be good things, though not obvious from this supplier. I would expect a Bosch motor and battery, and a thrust sensor as a starting point normally.
I have not seen the make of motor or battery they use mentioned elsewhere, and what on earth is a sine wave controller - sounds like nonsense?

I've got a woosh 20Ah 36v (720Wh) battery that is performing very well after 3 years. (My niece is using it at Uni for getting round Newcastle)

I think Woosh make some thoughtful choices on their bike specs, eg the Camino has hydraulic disk brakes with 180mm rotors, sine wave controller, fork choice, decent battery size, saddle choice, rear rack and mudguards. Budget options but not the cheapest
 
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saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
7,859
3,622
Telford
One more important point. Many ebikes, mainly those costing more than £1500, but it's not an exact rule, use comms in the electronics, which lock you out of any repair activities. Typically, you get a code displayed in your LCD, which you can't find out what it means, so your only option is to take the bike to a dealer and connect the bike to their diagnostics, then you're at their mercy as to what happens next. Most dealers are trustworthy. Bosch dealers have the option to put a maintenance code in your bike, which will come up at whatever mileage they choose.

TranzX was a very popular ebike system adopted by many manufacturers. If you were unlucky enough to buy a bike that had it, you have virtually no chance of getting it diagnosed because there are no longer any dealers or equipment. That's why I warn you against bikes with closed systems and suggest Bosch or Yamaha if you must have one.

Even people who bought ebikes from Halfords have had a lot of trouble getting their issues diagnosed, and they seem to get a lot of issues.
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
2,371
1,596
"ease of maintenance and customer service / long life" would be good things, though not obvious from this supplier. I would expect a Bosch motor and battery, and a thrust sensor as a starting point normally.
I have not seen the make of motor or battery they use mentioned elsewhere, and what on earth is a sine wave controller - sounds like nonsense?
You could use the above as your criteria and save a lot of going round the houses. Mid-drive bikes using Bosch motors with decent sized batteries these days start around £2K, and sometimes a bit cheaper in sales.

Cheaper bikes are either 'bottom end' mid-drives with the lower torque motors and smaller batteries and poorer components, or they are hub motor bikes. These are fine for their purpose, which is transport. They are very different in riding feel and style, but they suit many people.

If you want to feel like a cyclist, with the bike responding to your leg input, then torque sensored mid-drive is exactly what you need. And all else being equal, Bosch Performance Line with 500Wh battery is the minimum spec you should look for.

Looked after, bought with full 2 years warranty, any issues sorted before warranty expires, such a bike is a pretty safe bet.
 

stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
I see I can get a Kalkhoff Agattu 3.B Excite 2021 for £1900 delivered and mostly assembled. It is tempting, though possibly OTT for my expected usage. I think that you have to charge its battery with it in the bike? Can the 500 Wh be replaced with a 625 Wh battery when it dies?

I am also bearing in mind the suggestions for much cheaper Chinese bikes, and the Trek Verve+1 with 500 Ah is still possible.

What is the situation with touring with an ebike? Do hotels provide safe lock ups with charge points? Do you have to arrange that in advance, loosing spontaneity and the ability to stay put if it rains heavily etc.?
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
2,371
1,596
I see I can get a Kalkhoff Agattu 3.B Excite 2021 for £1900 delivered and mostly assembled. It is tempting, though possibly OTT for my expected usage. I think that you have to charge its battery with it in the bike? Can the 500 Wh be replaced with a 625 Wh battery when it dies?

I am also bearing in mind the suggestions for much cheaper Chinese bikes, and the Trek Verve+1 with 500 Ah is still possible.

What is the situation with touring with an ebike? Do hotels provide safe lock ups with charge points? Do you have to arrange that in advance, loosing spontaneity and the ability to stay put if it rains heavily etc.?
Ebike touring is a brilliant thing! I've done a lot of it, UK only, mostly Scotland and regular round trips to north Wales. Charging is your only issue, which is solvable by planning and confidence building ahead of time. On my first trip, I called cafes and tourist attractions ahead to ask, but I soon found that in my touring areas, I didn't need to, everyone always says yes as long as my attitude is asking a favour not demanding. My battery is removable, which helps.

Go for a bigger battery. The 625Wh will just about keep you going all day if you are staying in hotels and so travelling fairly light. Make sure your charger is 4A or more. Then recharging is only 3 hours or so, and does not need to be left on overnight, reducing risk and perceptions of risk.

A well known manufacturer also helps with perception of risk: a Bosch battery and charger are unlikely to raise eyebrows. I have only once been asked about safety with my Shimano batteries, and even that was in jest.

It will depend on the season, the time of day etc but I have frequently relied entirely on cafes and pubs for my charging. Wetherspoons are my fallback: widespread, always sockets in the bar, endless tea refills, open all day and often quiet at the times I want to charge.

The main thing is always to ask first, buy enough food and drink as a reasonable quid pro quo, and don't be demanding!

Hotels you can ask before you travel. If you ever get into difficulties you only need a standard socket, so you just need one friendly face. Lots of people are interested in an unusual traveller, so you are unlikely ever to be stuck.

Trains need a booking for a bike, but most can accommodate a full size bike with panniers, which means the nearest station is always a get out of jail free card.

On bike choice, especially sales like that 2021 Agutta, make sure you check warranty. For peace of mind you really want the full two years cover on the electrical parts. On that bike, it is the weakest Bosch motor, not ideal, belt drive which is good, but for touring the 8 speed hub gears would be a limitation. Not a low enough bottom gear for hilly terrain.

Edit: Rim brakes will not do on a £1900 bike! Discs are much preferred, especially for touring.
 

stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
Ebike touring is a brilliant thing! I've done a lot of it, UK only, mostly Scotland and regular round trips to north Wales. Charging is your only issue, which is solvable by planning and confidence building ahead of time. On my first trip, I called cafes and tourist attractions ahead to ask, but I soon found that in my touring areas, I didn't need to, everyone always says yes as long as my attitude is asking a favour not demanding. My battery is removable, which helps.

Go for a bigger battery. The 625Wh will just about keep you going all day if you are staying in hotels and so travelling fairly light. Make sure your charger is 4A or more. Then recharging is only 3 hours or so, and does not need to be left on overnight, reducing risk and perceptions of risk.

A well known manufacturer also helps with perception of risk: a Bosch battery and charger are unlikely to raise eyebrows. I have only once been asked about safety with my Shimano batteries, and even that was in jest.

It will depend on the season, the time of day etc but I have frequently relied entirely on cafes and pubs for my charging. Wetherspoons are my fallback: widespread, always sockets in the bar, endless tea refills, open all day and often quiet at the times I want to charge.

The main thing is always to ask first, buy enough food and drink as a reasonable quid pro quo, and don't be demanding!

Hotels you can ask before you travel. If you ever get into difficulties you only need a standard socket, so you just need one friendly face. Lots of people are interested in an unusual traveller, so you are unlikely ever to be stuck.

Trains need a booking for a bike, but most can accommodate a full size bike with panniers, which means the nearest station is always a get out of jail free card.

On bike choice, especially sales like that 2021 Agutta, make sure you check warranty. For peace of mind you really want the full two years cover on the electrical parts. On that bike, it is the weakest Bosch motor, not ideal, belt drive which is good, but for touring the 8 speed hub gears would be a limitation. Not a low enough bottom gear for hilly terrain.

Edit: Rim brakes will not do on a £1900 bike! Discs are much preferred, especially for touring.
Thanks for the info on touring.

The Agutta uses the 50 Nm torque drive, surely the weakest is the 40 Nm, requiring the widest gear ratio for a given hill?
The hill ability would depend on the lowest gear's ratio, rather than just the number of gears. I have read that some complain that the Agutta has low gearing making is slow on flat or down hill, so the steepest climb might be OK? I have no great desire for speed anyway, and don't mind walking when the gradient is silly.

The Which review of the Verve+1, which uses the 40 Nm motor, said it started easily and ran up a 25% gradient.

I have always used ordinary bikes, with rim brakes, and no trouble stopping - you just need to run them from time to time to dry them out when wet. The dominant weight/momentum component with an ebike is still me, not the 25kg bike (say 10 .. 15 kg more than my current bike), so does a rim brake really matter that much?
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
7,859
3,622
Telford
Thanks for the info on touring.

The Agutta uses the 50 Nm torque drive, surely the weakest is the 40 Nm, requiring the widest gear ratio for a given hill?
The hill ability would depend on the lowest gear's ratio, rather than just the number of gears. I have read that some complain that the Agutta has low gearing making is slow on flat or down hill, so the steepest climb might be OK? I have no great desire for speed anyway, and don't mind walking when the gradient is silly.

The Which review of the Verve+1, which uses the 40 Nm motor, said it started easily and ran up a 25% gradient.

I have always used ordinary bikes, with rim brakes, and no trouble stopping - you just need to run them from time to time to dry them out when wet. The dominant weight/momentum component with an ebike is still me, not the 25kg bike (say 10 .. 15 kg more than my current bike), so does a rim brake really matter that much?
You still haven't told us your weight. When you read stuff in magazines, the riders are always very slim and fit cyclists. Your average middle-aged unfit and slightly over-weight guy is not going to get the same experience.

Torque figures are a bit like range - completely meaningless. Motors make torque in more or less direct relation to how much current you give them. They're transducers. there's no inherent amount of torque they make. You can, however, make statements about the maximum torque from the back wheel of any particular installation. In other words, the same motor can make different amount of torque in different bikes with different controllers and batteries, and for crank-motor bikes, gearing determines the torque more than anything.

Every ebike from the cheapest to the most expensive has its own advantages and disadvantages. It's just a case of finding one that has the characteristics that you need without getting ripped off.

It's very easy to get sucked in by paradigms. One of the best ebikes I've ridden cost £360 from Argos. Everything worked perfectly, and the guy, who owns it, has ridden it every day for 8 months as his only means of transport. You can't get that one anymore, but there are many similar ones on Ebay and Amazon. It made me think a lot about what was really necessary for an ebike. It's only when you need something special that you need a special ebike.
 
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stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
You still haven't told us your weight. When you read stuff in magazines, the riders are always very slim and fit cyclists. Your average middle-aged unfit and slightly over-weight guy is not going to get the same experience.

Torque figures are a bit like range - completely meaningless. Motors make torque in more or less direct relation to how much current you give them. They're transducers. there's no inherent amount of torque they make. You can, however, make statements about the maximum torque from the back wheel of any particular installation. In other words, the same motor can make different amount of torque in different bikes with different controllers and batteries, and for crank-motor bikes, gearing determines the torque more than anything.

Every ebike from the cheapest to the most expensive has its own advantages and disadvantages. It's just a case of finding one that has the characteristics that you need without getting ripped off.

It's very easy to get sucked in by paradigms. One of the best ebikes I've ridden cost £360 from Argos. Everything worked perfectly, and the guy, who owns it, has ridden it every day for 8 months as his only means of transport. You can't get that one anymore, but there are many similar ones on Ebay and Amazon. It made me think a lot about what was really necessary for an ebike. It's only when you need something special that you need a special ebike.
I sort of assumed there would be a practical stall threshold torque for a controlled motor system, with max current from the given battery at min reasonable rotation speed. Near that point the system would be non linear and the motor and control components would get hot, wasting power and risking damage. Otherwise what does the spec mean?

Perhaps a rational decision is impossible with the limited information provided by suppliers on the many factors involved :-(.

Just tried the scales, for the first time in years: 15 st 4 lb == 97 kg. So within the 130 kg total weight, but say 25% heavier (bike+rider) than a normal height moderately fit animal? e.g. a bike tested on 25% slope should be ok on 19% with me. I will be happy if I can take a 1:10 without walking.
 

Peter.Bridge

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
1,531
710
Thanks for the info on touring.

The Agutta uses the 50 Nm torque drive, surely the weakest is the 40 Nm, requiring the widest gear ratio for a given hill?
The hill ability would depend on the lowest gear's ratio, rather than just the number of gears. I have read that some complain that the Agutta has low gearing making is slow on flat or down hill, so the steepest climb might be OK? I have no great desire for speed anyway, and don't mind walking when the gradient is silly.

The Which review of the Verve+1, which uses the 40 Nm motor, said it started easily and ran up a 25% gradient.

I have always used ordinary bikes, with rim brakes, and no trouble stopping - you just need to run them from time to time to dry them out when wet. The dominant weight/momentum component with an ebike is still me, not the 25kg bike (say 10 .. 15 kg more than my current bike), so does a rim brake really matter that much?
Yep - get hydraulic disc brakes for Ebike.

It's sometimes hard to predict from specs, not sure the torque figures quoted are always comparable. Would definitely have a ride of a few, even if you have to hire them for a few hours.

My sister had a Bosch powered Ebike which has lasted 10 years with one replacement battery. The hub gears have failed on it. I added a TSDZ8 mid drive kit and 720Wh battery to an old MTB for her coast to coast Ebike ride. It was very affordable and she says it is incredibly powerful compared with her old bike (which was an early model) or her friends shop bought e-bikes. It is quite heavy 22kg including battery
 
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stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4

I've got a woosh 20Ah 36v (720Wh) battery that is performing very well after 3 years. (My niece is using it at Uni for getting round Newcastle)

I think Woosh make some thoughtful choices on their bike specs, eg the Camino has hydraulic disk brakes with 180mm rotors, sine wave controller, fork choice, decent battery size, saddle choice, rear rack and mudguards. Budget options but not the cheapest
Interesting about the controller.

I looked at some kits on Amazon, including Woosh. Looks like there could be trouble getting stuff to fit a given bike, and waterproofing things, and having it legal, and battery safety acceptance while touring ...

I do have a spare push bike I could adapt. It has hub brakes and rear gears only, so a pedal driving torque sensing motor may be possible..
 
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matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
2,371
1,596
Thanks for the info on touring.

The Agutta uses the 50 Nm torque drive, surely the weakest is the 40 Nm, requiring the widest gear ratio for a given hill?
The hill ability would depend on the lowest gear's ratio, rather than just the number of gears. I have read that some complain that the Agutta has low gearing making is slow on flat or down hill, so the steepest climb might be OK? I have no great desire for speed anyway, and don't mind walking when the gradient is silly.

The Which review of the Verve+1, which uses the 40 Nm motor, said it started easily and ran up a 25% gradient.

I have always used ordinary bikes, with rim brakes, and no trouble stopping - you just need to run them from time to time to dry them out when wet. The dominant weight/momentum component with an ebike is still me, not the 25kg bike (say 10 .. 15 kg more than my current bike), so does a rim brake really matter that much?
I was going on the Bosch names rather than firm knowledge of the numbers. Active Line as far as I know is the bottom of the range, then Active Line plus, Performance Line, Performance Line CX.

My bike is only 40Nm, and I tour 'heavy', up to 150kg all up weight. I had to fit a lower bottom gear to manage the routes I wanted to do: 38T chainwheel and 51T bottom gear. The original 36T with touring weight was a problem.

Any mid-drive motor can climb any hill if the gears go low enough. The higher torque motors will manage with a higher gear and at higher speed.

The bike you highlight will 'do' but I don't think you would regret a bit extra for disc brakes, higher spec motor, larger battery.

You will have no difficulty with 10% gradients. It will only become problematic at 12-14% with standard gearing, and close to 20% with the sort of gears I use.
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
2,371
1,596
An example, rather than a recommendation. I know it is another £400, but this has 75Nm Bosch Performance Line motor, basic but effective Shimano MT200 disc brakes, same 500Wh battery, and Shimano Cues wide range 9 speed 11-46T gears. Cues is designed for longer life on ebikes, and the 9 speed is a clever mix of close higher ratios and more widely spaced lower ratios - with a pretty good lowest gear. All sizes in stock, and a low step frame.