Domestic Water Pressure

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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Good morning, a slightly random question;

Is it possible for domestic water pressure to surge to the extent that it will cause a water pipe joint inside the house to sperate and cause a leak? The joint in question is a nut & olive type assembly that had been installed approximately 30 years ago and has previously shown no sign of leaking.

I am currently in dispute with a firm of solicitors who, as designated Trustees / Executors of an estate, have responsibility for safeguarding the assets. A pipe joint located in the loft of a house, which forms part of the estate, separated last December and caused flooding. The damage is estimated to be around £60,000.

My investigations have revealed that the leak occurred during a period when the temperature fell to -10C and was well below zero several days either side (Met Office supplied historical daily temperature records). The property was unheated at the time (admitted by solicitor). The property was not insured against escapes of water (admitted by solicitor). The solicitor is charging the estate for the cost of repairs.

The solicitors are claiming that the pipe did not freeze (actually used those words), but "excess pressure" forced the pipe joint apart. I won't go into detail why, but if they can have the excess pressure theory accepted, it gets them off the hook over a very serious allegation of lying / general dishonesty which is currently being investigated by the Solicitor Regulation Authority (SRA). The SRA are making noises which sound to me like they might buy into the "excess pressure" theory.

My thoughts are that a likelihood of a surge in water supply pressure is so small, it can be considered impossible. My understanding is that mains water pressure is generated by three components, 1) Water Density, 2) Gravity and 3) the height of the reservoir / district water tank above the property in question. Nothing else can change that. They are the only factors in play.

1) Gravity has remained constant since the dawn of time.
2) Fresh / drinking water density is also a constant.
3) The difference in elevation / geography of the landscape between the property in question and the reservoir will not alter.

The above factors are why our ancient ancestors devised this system of water infrastructure. It provides a constant and stable method of water delivery to areas of civilization.

The options the SRA have to decide on are: Did the pipe joint separate during a period when the temperature was -10C and the property was unheated? Or did the gravity (which has been constant for millennia) suddenly quadruple? Has drinking water suddenly become four time more dense? Has the geography of the UK suddenly altered to an unrecognizable extent? It sounds pant wittingly stupid, but I think the SRA are buying into the gravity / density / geography shift theory!

Can someone please point out any holes (excuse the pun) in my theory?
 
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Benjahmin

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Nov 10, 2014
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I have seen compression joints forced apart when the water in the pipe freezes. It will not turn up as a leak until the water thaws. The only time I have seen a compression joint fail through water pressure is when the water is first turned on after an installation that has not been achieved properly, but never after being stable for such a long period.
Unless it can be showed that there was a sudden and extreme increase in pressure then I would think the balance of probabilties points to the temperature - which can be proved. Besides, why were there no other such failures reported - was the pressure increase in the affected property only?
Freezing water in a copper pipe is capable of causing longitudinal splits in copper pipe as it expands. I've seen the evidence, the force is tremendous.
Sounds like you need to contact a few proffesional plumbers for 'expert' opinions.
 
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Benjahmin

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Nov 10, 2014
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Further to this. If the burst pipe was on the cold supply side (ie mains) then this is a pumped supply from thr water board. The pressure may go down because of leaks in the system, but the supplier has a vested interest in not allowing pressure to go up beyond normal as this may/probably would cause damage to the creaking supply pipework.
If the burst pipe was on the cold or hot system within the house (both fed from a cold tank in the attic) then the maximum pressure possible is the head of water provided by the water stored in that tank. As gravity is a constant, the pressure can't change.
If the burst was on the hot system fed by a combi boiler, then this is mains pressure and there are pressure relief valves within the boiler itself that would have dealt with this mysterious surge.
I suggest, m'lud, that this is a blatant case of arse covering.
It froze.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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Further to this. If the burst pipe was on the cold supply side (ie mains) then this is a pumped supply from thr water board. The pressure may go down because of leaks in the system, but the supplier has a vested interest in not allowing pressure to go up beyond normal as this may/probably would cause damage to the creaking supply pipework.
If the burst pipe was on the cold or hot system within the house (both fed from a cold tank in the attic) then the maximum pressure possible is the head of water provided by the water stored in that tank. As gravity is a constant, the pressure can't change.
If the burst was on the hot system fed by a combi boiler, then this is mains pressure and there are pressure relief valves within the boiler itself that would have dealt with this mysterious surge.
I suggest, m'lud, that this is a blatant case of arse covering.
It froze.
Thank you. The burst was on the cold mains water supply within the house. It's actually a bungalow and the pipe fed the cold water tap in the kitchen.

As you say, I thought water companies use water towers / gravity maintain a constant head of water which provide a buffer against any spikes created by the mechanical pumps. A sort of hybrid gravity / mechanical pump delivery system.

I know 100% that the pipe froze. The Met Office data indicates -10C and correspondence from the solicitor states the heating hadn't been switched on. They have actually convinced the SRA that the cold weather wasn't a factor and that it was is surge in water supply pressure (coincidentally during the period of cold weather) which caused to pipe joint to fail.

You know this is a lie, I know it's a lie and the solicitor knows that she is lying, but dealing with these people is very difficult and time consuming. You are met with a wall of unchallengeable ignorance and sense of superiority. It's been a bit of an eye opener.

I've not done with them yet. Not by a long way.

I heard from the SRA yesterday saying they have found that the solicitor failed to insure the property as comprehensively as they could and should have done. That's going to be very useful evidence for the negligence claim, but in all honesty the money is a very distant second priority. I want her held to account for the very obvious lies she has told whilst trying to cover her incompetence. There is a lot more that I haven't bored you with on here. These people are no better than the scum which cons vulnerable people out of their life savings. It's just that she wears an expensive frock whilst doing it. Complete filth.
 

jimriley

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2020
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A house I was buying in winter 1979 did the same thing, luckily I had a mate who lived close by and heard the drips, the faeries had copied the key when it was loaned out for the viewing, so I went in and turned the water off. it was a doer-upper property so no harm done. it turned out that the outflow from the cistern had blocked too, so only a bit of a drip came through.
 
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