DNP Epoch Freewheels..and gearing question

Scimitar

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Jul 31, 2010
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I don't think it's very difficult. A guy managed to bolt a cassette hub on to the side of a Bafang BPM motor in his shed after machining off the free-wheel. He sent it to Bafang, and they used it to develop the Bafang CST motor, which I'm just trialling at the moment. I don't know why it has to be so much more expensive than the BPM, because the rest of thr motor is the same.
8FUN¡¡Motor
The key is reliability and simplicity. There's a good reason why the Chinese used the ancient freewheel setup - easy to make and can be knocked out with minimal setup. With a cassette system the splined hub would have to be either an integral part of the motor casing or bolted on - either way is more expensive to produce and likely not that good, especially if it leads to failures in customers' bikes.
I wish they would - it would make life much simpler by opening up a vast range of easily-fitted options.
I think the freewheel was fine in 1962, but that's where it belongs.
 

morphix

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Freewheels were definitely on the way out until the Chinese re-introduced them to the West with their hub-motored e-bikes. It would be harder to adequately and cheaply engineer a cassette system onto a hub with a high degree of reliability, I would think.
Just look at how easy and cheap it is to obtain an 11T cassette cluster on ebay - compared to freewheels. That's really down to scale of demand and manufacture.
Even buying one direct from aliexpress is more expensive than I can find a cassette on the 'bay.
Aliexpress.com : Buy DNP Epoch 7 Speed Freewheel Cog 11 28T 7S speed For shimano system bike MTB cassette mountain xc from Reliable bike bicycle sports suppliers on Bike Bicycle Accessories Wholesaler(Free shipping)
That's the one I'll be ordering next week, I think. I'll have a go at reducing the cog count, too.
That's the very one I've ordered Scimitar so I'll let you know if it's any good (if it even arrives!) unless you want to go ahead and risk it too ;-) There's only TWO stockists that I know of in US that have them for shipping to UK (one sells on eBay.com) and shipping is about $15 so I figured go to China and save on the shipping.

I agree with your last comment about freewheels being well and truly gone now in 11T (people on endless sphere are even discussing buying old bikes off eBay to salvage them!) only DNP makes them still I think and they're obviously intended for the e-bike market according to the website rather than mainstream cycle industry.. it's surprising then in their small production volume they're able to keep the price reasonably low. I wonder if Shimano and others would consider making 11T freewheels again to cater for the growing e-bike user market? Probably not due to low volume and if they did, would be very high price premium I bet.

I asked DNP the weight and they confirmed that 11T-28T is 550g, so a bit on the heavy side compared to some 14T Shimano 7-spd freewheels which weigh 330g. You can see on DNP's website net shipping and gross shipping weight for 26 units is given for each freewheel type.

I've spent a week researching gears and searching extensively.. whilst freewheels are still made by Shimano and others, there's far less choice and its very unusual to see them below 14T for some reason. The lowest I found for a quality brand is 13T and that's Sturmey Archer for the bargain price of £15.. I suspect that is "old new" stock as I could only find one vendor in UK stocking them. I did find a site that stocks salvaged freewheels with quality makes and reasonable prices they didn't have very many or any 11T's though as I recall.

I saw some talk on Endless Sphere about an adaptor being available for conversion of freewheel hub to take cassettes. Maybe that makes more sense and then we're not so limited on gearing options? What's the practical considerations about the adaptor approach..less reliable or difficult to fit etc?

BMS stocks freewheels for $8 but don't state the gear range, but be interesting to see if they're 11T and DNP, but it doesn't look like it from the pic. I will ask them and report back. The Chinese e-bike kit sellers attitude towards gears seems to like they're an afterthought.. there doesn't seem to be any serious consideration to people who want to use all their gears and want a proper set of gearing..and importantly the ability to ride at 11T to keep up with gears! Weird.


EDIT: BMS only stock a Shimano 14T-28T.
 
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Deleted member 4366

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BMS stocks freewheels for $8 but don't state the gear range, but be interesting to see if they're 11T and DNP, but it doesn't look like it from the pic. I will ask them and report back. The Chinese e-bike kit sellers attitude towards gears seems to like they're an afterthought.. there doesn't seem to be any serious consideration to people who have a serious cycles and want a proper set of gearing..or the ability to ride at 11T to keep up with gears! Weird.
They're 14T
 

Old_Dave

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Sep 15, 2012
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What's the practical considerations about the adaptor approach
I'd say (only my own personal musings with no disrespect to any one involved in the creation of such a device... god bless them) From long term stresses and development costs its not the better option..

Even though we have discussed changing the chain wheel option (some like it and some don't) it's IMHO the easer and in the long term cheaper solution if theres room.
 
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Deleted member 4366

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I'd say (only my own personal musings with no disrespect to any one involved in the creation of such a device... god bless them) From long term stresses and development costs its not the better option..

Even though we have discussed changing the chain wheel option (some like it and some don't) it's IMHO the easer and in the long term cheaper solution if theres room.
Best to get both.With a 11/32T DNP free-wheel and a 53/39T on the front, you can pedal at 3o mph and climb any hill. A couple of days ago. I managed to pedal my Specialized Rockhopper with Oxydrive kit at 35mph in top gear down a hill. I think it has 11/48 top gear. While I'm on a roll and with reference to "Ebikes vs Normal bikes" thread, where I mentioned I'm trialling a Bafang CST motor, I got my record speed of 42.7 mph free-wheeling down a short steep bendy hill on my Giant NRS with this motor. If I didn't have to brake for the bends, i could have gone even faster. Maybe next time. Who says, you get drag from hub-motors?
 
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morphix

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Oct 24, 2010
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Counter steering and hope the tyres are up to it.... lol, but 42.7 would be kinda pushing ones luck :p

which if your tests go ok, could prove to be the ideal and most simple answer :D
The only prob with CST motors is they're so damn heavy! Can't they make light ones?! They seem to be more than twice the weight of Q100's. Not ideal for 16-20" folding bike builds, but ok on road bikes I guess. Also why are they so much more expensive?
 
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They're heavier but a lot more powerful. I just raced Steve (Saneagle) up out test hill. He has a 250w Bafang on the front at 15 amps and a Q128 at the back at 22 amps. My single BPM at about 32 amps blew him into the weeds. The CST doesn't seem to be quite as powerful, but i don't have a wattmeter on this bike yet to confirm what the difference is.
 

Scimitar

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Jul 31, 2010
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The key is reliability and simplicity. There's a good reason why the Chinese used the ancient freewheel setup - easy to make and can be knocked out with minimal setup. With a cassette system the splined hub would have to be either an integral part of the motor casing or bolted on - either way is more expensive to produce and likely not that good, especially if it leads to failures in customers' bikes.
I wish they would - it would make life much simpler by opening up a vast range of easily-fitted options.
I think the freewheel was fine in 1962, but that's where it belongs.
This has just popped up on a search - interesting.
I don't want to be an early adopter, though - I suspect that some customers will be the testers in the early version. B ugger that, with the return costs involved. I'll wait until it's been bugged-out.
Hot sale 350-500W Cassette Freewheel Rear Hub Motor,View Rear hub motor, Product Details from Suzhou Xiongfeng Motor Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com
 
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Deleted member 4366

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This has just popped up on a search - interesting.
I don't want to be an early adopter, though - I suspect that some customers will be the testers in the early version. B ugger that, with the return costs involved. I'll wait until it's been bugged-out.
Hot sale 350-500W Cassette Freewheel Rear Hub Motor,View Rear hub motor, Product Details from Suzhou Xiongfeng Motor Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com
I'm pretty sure that's a Bafang CST with their logo on it. Did you see the 250w version that's smaller and lighter, but still with cassette fixing.
Hot Sale!!! 250W Hub Motor with Cassette,View Hub motor, Product Details from Suzhou Xiongfeng Motor Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com
 

Scimitar

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 31, 2010
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I like the look of that one, too. Personally, I'd prefer the higher-powered one, but I'm thinking I might go for a 2WD solution next time around and keep it stealth, so a pair of 250W might be good (a pair of 500W would be better, but bulkier). Thinking diy cargo bike, so more power is desirable and space for batteries is a given.
 

morphix

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I had confirmation my DNP freewheel has been shipped from China on 17th... Chinese postal service tracking site is screwed (server 500 errors) but I'm expecting a looooooong wait. I've been waiting over 30 days for a keyring cam to arrive...I think the Chinese postal inspections are really slowing things... I don't get why they're checking all OUTGOING mail.. what are they worried about?
 

sammy7boy

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Feb 7, 2013
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Hello folks i'm new on here having almost finished building an e-bike of my own. I've cycled to work/university my whole life and it's what's kept me fit for the road racing and time trialling i do, but i suffered a major blow when they posted me 30 miles from home as i don't have enough hours in the day for the 3-4 hour commuting round trip! That's when i got the idea to build an electric bike: i can still get my daily fix of cycling but with some extra power to trim my journey time down!

I tested the bike properly the other day and was blown away by its ability to climb hills and destroy headwinds. I'm now really optimistic about riding 60 miles a day on it with loaded pannier bags! Problem is that i'm in my top gear (48/13) the whole time so i'm now in the process of beefing up the gearing (it has 26" wheels which doesn't help). I have a 52-42-30 chainset to fit and i've also got my hands on a Sunrace 11-32 nine speed freewheel.

All was looking rosy, until i read this forum. What's this about bending the axle in the 11-tooth sprocket?? Does anyone have any experience of this? Also, does anyone know what freewheel removal tool to use with the Sunrace MFEX-9 11-32 freewheel as my Shimano one isn't compatible?? This freewheel is one of the world's modern great mysteries. There is NO INFORMATION about it online. Nothing. Except where i can buy one. I need the help of other users here! :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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The Shimano removal tool you have may be for cassettes, freewheel ones are slightly different and a standard freewheel one should fit ok. There are plenty of them available online, but make sure it is a freewheel one since many suppliers tend to say freewheel when they mean cassette.

I wouldn't worry about bending the spindle, I've never known of this happening due to the 11 tooth sprocket. It is true that some freewheels have poor outboard bearing support which could lead to the freewheel failing rather than the spindle.
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
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Tell us a bit more about your build. Some pics wd be nice :D.
 

shemozzle999

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Sep 28, 2009
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Look at the related item sold at the bottom of the page for the tool:

Google Translate

They also sell a 10 speed, select "Browse this category: Freewheel" at the bottom of the page then goto LAST ITEM ON PAGE 4 OF 4:

Sunrace cassette MFEZ1 TAW
 
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Deleted member 4366

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A 9 speed free-wheel might be too wide. You might be able to squeeze it in, but you'll need at least a couple of spacer washers on the axle so that it doesn't get clamped when you do up the axle nut. The axle on an electric motor is bigger than a normal bike, so not likely to bend, but we have seen the free-wheel threaded boss break right off on some motors when too much pedal effort was applied.

It would be easier to advise if we new what bike or motor you had!

Where did you get that free-wheel from and how much did it cost?
 

Fordulike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 26, 2010
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What's this about bending the axle in the 11-tooth sprocket?? Does anyone have any experience of this?
Yeah, as flecc mentioned, the Epoch DNP 11T has no bearing support on the axle at the 11T end.
This can lead to the case cracking on the side of the hub motor, if you tend to pedal along hard in that gear.
Many cases of this happening on bikes over at Endless Sphere.
Happened to me too, and I have changed my riding style because of it.


2012-08-26-087.jpg
 
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Deleted member 4366

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I just remembered about the tool. Most don't fit over the axle. The one in that link from Shemozzle looks the same as mine that does fit. It has to have a hole bigger than 12mm in the opposite end to the spline to go over the axle.