Cytronex

[indalo]

The recent thread relating to bottle v rack batteries caused me to question why Cytronex bikes aren't hugely popular amongst our members here.

Considering there is also the thread about Cyclecharge, it made me think all that's required for most cyclists needing a little help is a decent, lightweight battery in a lightweight bike - Cytronex? It may be older technology as batteries go but the Ni-Mh battery utilised by Cytronex is a quick-charge type, unlike the Li-Ion ones popularly used now. The beauty of lightweight, multi-geared bikes is that they are far easier to ride unpowered than the average electric bike so running out of juice isn't such a big deal.

Admittedly, there are some who cannot or will not pedal and want something akin to an electric moped so clearly, the Cytronex bikes would not suit them. That said, for those who just want a little assistance at times, the old-hat system employed by Cytronex is probably ideal. The battery is light enough to permit the carrying of a spare without overtaxing bike or rider, should anyone feel the need.

The new Bosch batteries are fairly quick-charge units so the game is moving on all the time but if nothing else, Cytronex bikes demonstrate how easy it is to produce an electrically-assisted bike, eminently rideable without power by most cyclists.

Now, I'm not advocating we should all be riding Cytronex bikes but I would like, in the light of the recent threads I mentioned and the concerns some have about range, to understand why so few members here have chosen to buy Cytronex. I'd be interested to know if it's the style, the price, the way they operate or something else.

My guess would be price primarily as, although they're not grossly expensive, they don't knock out any budget-line bikes as far as I know and most forum members spend far less on their ebikes than the cheapest Cytonex. Perhaps there's a really good reason for not buying one of their bikes that I'm unaware of. If that's the case, please tell me!

Indalo

 

[eddieo]

I think most e bike aficionados prefer utilitarian/hybrid style bikes. Also some doubts about the strength and reliability of the small motors they use could be a contributing factor. I thought I heard that the kit battery was lithium?

 

[jerrysimon]

Indalo,

My second ebike bike was a Cytronex albeit a second hand one. They are expensive but no more so than many other higher end ebikes.

I loved it, they use excellent base bikes (mine was one for th Trek FX thingies) and ride really well. All the lights are integrated and the controls were brilliant.

For me Cytronex put me onto the evolutionary road of making my bike as light and as quiet/stealth as possible.

The battery is perfect in terms of fitting its inteneded application, though I wonder how much so for people in very hilly areas or who like lots of assistance.

Maybe the people who might be attracted to the type of bikes they sell, just don't want power assistance ?

PS I heard they were changing to lithium too. We don't hear a lot from them these days. Maybe they are doing a steady trade and cashing in now on all the developement work, that has got them to this point. In terms of the motor, I don't think they get a lot of failures because they have designed the electronics/system around the limitations of the Tongxin motor.

Regards

Jerry

 

[indalo]

I thought I heard that the kit battery was lithium?

You may well be right Eddie about the new battery. I really don't know but your point about ebike afficionados' preferences is fair as that's what most seem to ride. Of course, that may well be driven by the fact that such a large number of the bikes available to us happen to be of that type.

The motor is not the most robust, reportedly, but as the bike is so easy to ride unpowered, a motor failure would probably allow one to limp home. As it's a front hub motor, it takes only a minute or two to swap wheels with a regular wheel, if the worst comes to the worst, ( not out on the road, obviously!)

I still remember the Gadget Show item about the Cytronex and it was very impressive....well, it impressed me. Those Pedelecs members who own Cytonex bikes seem to praise them and I don't remember anyone roundly condemning them. I think I like the fact they don't slavishly follow fashion within their industry and are therefore perhaps a little quirky?

Indalo

 

[eddieo]

Say Cytonex to me and I immediately think sports road bikes..I know they build on other bikes as well. My weight/health and lack of fitness means more assistance is required so not really suitable. They have there niche and they seem to be doing well with it. As for the kit God knows what is happening......

A ride around the block on sons 8kg C Bordman road bike was enough to put me of road bikes for life!

 

[amigafan2003]

My guess would be price primarily as, although they're not grossly expensive, they don't knock out any budget-line bikes as far as I know and most forum members spend far less on their ebikes than the cheapest Cytonex. Perhaps there's a really good reason for not buying one of their bikes that I'm unaware of. If that's the case, please tell me!

Indalo

I think they are expensive - look at thier Cannondale Quick CX - that's a £450 bike that they then sell for £1450 that has a low powered hub+controller and a low Ah battery on it. Ok the system may be neat but you could buy the same base bike, add an 8fun front hub bottle kit and have a more powerful bike that weighs on a couple of kg more and goes twice as far and still have change from £900.

Or, you could by a Trek FX 7.5 for £500, build your own kit with a Tongxin motor, programmable controller and lipo and have a bike at does 40 miles @ 16mph weights only 17kg and still have change from £1100 ;-)

I suppose if you aren't technical or skilled enough to add a kit to an existing bike or put together your own parts then you "might" consider a Cytronex.


But you're right on your other point - most people don't want low powered low speed ebikes.

If I had bottomless pockets stuffed with money I'd have a Cytronex Super Six in my collection though

 

[kitchenman]

I'm a huge fan for all the reasons mentioned above. My original CX700 is in my attic awaiting the new kit. My understanding regarding the batteries is that they will be offering NI-MH and Lithium and they will be lighter than the current NI-MH batteries which are 2.080 kg

 

[jhruk]

I tried the Cytronex when they first appeared at Presteigne. I seem to remember they were the star of the show - at last a decent lightweight bike with power assistance. They were priced well under £1000 then and if I’d been looking for a new bike I’d have been very tempted. Since then the product hasn’t really changed, but the prices now start around £1400. That’s on bike you can buy for around £400 - making their fairly simple Tongxin kit around £1000 extra. If I wanted one now I’d just buy the parts from China, at a fraction of the price, & fit them to the bike of my choice.

Do you ride one Indalo? If not, why not? Perhaps you could answer your own question.

 

[greyhound_dog_1]

We're stealthy people, with stealthy bikes, so you just don't know we own them...
Probably they are seen as a bit of a niche product for uber-fit cyclists, I have one and I think they deserve a wider audience.

Kit, yes..who knows. I gave up waiting for the kit last September and bought a Cytronex Cannondale CX-3. Brilliant bike, handles very well, comfortable, reliable, stealthy.

I guess the main issue could be peak torque and range. If I was choosing another bike I would aim for 50% more range and 50% more peak torque, but 95% of the time the bike as it stands is perfect for my needs.

I live in a relatively flat area and I find the battery has just enough charge (when just off the charger) to get me to work and back, a 13 mile round trip at 13.5 mph average speed, and it can just push up the last bit of incline before my house, unless it has been windy in which case it will have run out of climbing ability.

So maybe it is range. For me though, the battery is pretty much 'optimal'. I don't want to cart around excess weight for range I don't need 95% of the time, and the bike is easy to cycle unassisted. One can also buy a second charger and charge up at work if need be = 26 mile real range.

Personally the best feature is the power delivery method which complements the rider rather than hindering (none of this cadence-limiting stuff). People say it isn't suited to steep hills, but I've taken it up many 'normal' hills and it works very well (providing you are well charged). The main advantage is you can spin away at high cadence and also couple that with full motor output - if you can keep it above ~7 mph anyway (differs to cadence limiting crank drives). Equally you can choose to pedal hard and fast, gentle and fast, gentle and slow, whatever you feel like at the time and the speed controller adjusts to motor power to suit to maintain 15 mph (you can even 'pretend to pedal' on the freewheel and pootle on the motor alone). Cytronex is a very flexible system and I find it suits me.

 

[KirstinS]

I tried the Cytronex when they first appeared at Presteigne. I seem to remember they were the star of the show - at last a descent lightweight bike with power assistance. They were priced well under £1000 then and if I’d been looking for a new bike I’d have been very tempted. Since then the product hasn’t really changed, but the prices now start around £1400. That’s on bike you can buy for around £400 - making their fairly simple Tongxin kit around £1000 extra. If I wanted one now I’d just buy the parts from China, at a fraction of the price, & fit them to the bike of my choice.

Do you ride one Indalo? If not, why not? Perhaps you could answer your own question.

I really want a cytronex kit (i.e lightweight stealth road assit).....I've been waiting a LONG time but my undertanding is they remain several months off. They quoted me a conversion at £1000 but this is just too much for the parts list. Just cannot justify this in my head over the 8fun bottle battery kit.

 

[KirstinS]

I should point out that I would have no idea how to get a Tongxin, same controller and same control setup from a chinese supplier. Are there any that are easy(ish) to navigate? I'm confident I can put it together (except the lacing which I just get done by a pro)

Battery setup for me would be to follow the a123 battery biuld thread (perhaps even todays £20 one as this would get me to work and back I think)

 

[jhruk]

I should point out that I would have no idea how to get a Tongxin, same controller and same control setup from a chinese supplier. Are there any that are easy(ish) to navigate? I'm confident I can put it together (except the lacing which I just get done by a pro)

Battery setup for me would be to follow the a123 battery biuld thread (perhaps even todays £20 one as this would get me to work and back I think)

Jerrysimon is also an expert on the Tongxin and has recently purchased some from China - see his thread here.

An alternative, somewhat easier to obtain, motor is the Cute Q85 from BMS Battery. Compared to a Tongxin it’s about the same size, slightly lighter, more powerful, but, as it has conventional gears, noiser. It’s also probably more robust. You can buy this easily from BMS Battery either as a bare motor or in a kit with a laced wheel. The Q100 looks to be the same size though slightly heavier.

I bought a kit for a 20” Dahon last year - it was very easy to fit and has given no problems to date. The motor is very free running and any conversion using this kit should weigh no more than one with a Tongxin. It’s Cute power v Tongxin silence.

 

[jerrysimon]

Yes I keep meaning to try one of those Cute Q85s. Certainly more readily available though my latest Tongxin source from China seem reliable and easy to deal with. Once you express interest, they then send you a formal order with pictures of what you have ordered.

Regards

Jerry

 

[KirstinS]

Thanks both - very intersting as this gives me a way forward ! I'm not too fussy about the noise - my mian reasons for chosing the tongxin were the weight/size and cruicially no rolling resistance so the bike be pedalled without power and feel "normal"

looks a cute will do the same thing and is easily availabe. Happy days

 

[jerrysimon]

There is another consideration and that is the motor power consumption. The Cute is likely to draw more power given it is a 250w (it might even be 350w) motor compared to the Tongxin's 180w, at least for the narrower width ones that I use.

Again not a problem, but if you are looking to maximise battery time/reduce battery size to an absolute minimum, as I am, then that will be important.


Regards

Jerry

 

[amigafan2003]

There is another consideration and that is the motor power consumption. The Cute is likely to draw more power given it is a 250w (it might even be 350w) motor compared to the Tongxin's 180w, at least for the narrower width ones that I use.

Again not a problem, but if you are looking to maximise battery time/reduce battery size to an absolute minimum, as I am, then that will be important.


Regards

Jerry

Power draw doesn't really have anything to do with the motor, it's all down to the controller. If you feed say 36v @ 15 amps (540watts) to a Cute it'll feed exactly the same to a Tongxin. You can quite easily limit a Cute 85 to 180 watts if you'd so desire (although it would be gutless).

The only difference will be if the motor will be strong enough to take the amps and dissapate the heat.

My Tongxin has just passed 1000miles puling peaks of 740 watts (currently on a 63v hot batt with the contrller set at 12amps).

 

[jerrysimon]

Thanks for the clarification Amigafan. This is a side I have less understanding about.

Regards

Jerry

 

[jhruk]

Power draw doesn't really have anything to do with the motor, it's all down to the controller. If you feed say 36v @ 15 amps (540watts) to a Cute it'll feed exactly the same to a Tongxin. You can quite easily limit a Cute 85 to 180 watts if you'd so desire (although it would be gutless).

The only difference will be if the motor will be strong enough to take the amps and dissapate the heat.

My Tongxin has just passed 1000miles puling peaks of 740 watts (currently on a 63v hot batt with the contrller set at 12amps).

Yes, provided that they are of similar efficiency, which I expect they are, the output power of each is going to be the same for a given input power.

The controllers supplied with the Cute kits were set to around 14amp max, but as you say you could always adjust this, up or down.

I was given to understand that the Tongxin motors were usually used with less power due to weakness of the unusual drive/gearing system, rather than the motor itself. Yours seems to disprove this - or perhaps you’ve been lucky.

 

[Rab C Nesbitt]

Nothing really new to add as all the previous posters have covered the pros & cons very well - I'll admit that I fall into the "lesser assistance required" bracket in that my 12 mile daily commute probably only has 4 miles (long slow hills + 1 big b@st@rd) that I would use assistance on.

The rest of the time I'm happy to pedal sensibly and give myself a daily workout without arriving at work or home sweating like a pig. However, I do think that the delay by Cytronex in bringing the new kit to market (caused by external forces no doubt) has hacked quite a few folk off, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, when folk see the 8Fun Bottle battery and its cost, they start to think that maybe the Cytronex is overpriced and a quality donor bike + 8Fun becomes an attractive proposition.

Having said all that, I await with interest to see what they come out with

 

[Stumpi]

I’m running a Cytronex and Wisper side by side. They both work well but are very different.

The Wisper is functional and practical. Its quite a heavy bike and you’re never in any doubt that you’re on an Ebike. Seldom used without power. Its great for shopping, walking the dogs, rough surfaces up to forest tracks. Very tough and reliable.

The Cytronex feels like a “proper” cycle. Its light, flickable and flatters your riding. The power delivery is subtle and can used unpowered without feeling like you’re pedalling in treacle.

The Wisper would suit someone looking for robust practical transport while the Cytronex would suit someone looking for a “purer” cycling experience.